How is the only Palestine on the news East Palestine?

@LeopoldBloom have you seen what's been happening in Huwarrah?

@sexyjigsaw Yes. A lot of Israelis are disgusted by that. But when Palestinian terrorists do the same thing, they're cheered.

@LeopoldBloom you have a crafty phrasing

@sexyjigsaw I'm not being crafty, I'm describing what's happening. It's in the news. Israelis are protesting the legislative neutering of their judicial system, and also what happened in Huwarah.

Palestinians are victims of the bigotry of low expectations. When they shoot rockets or attack Israeli civilians, everyone shrugs their shoulders as if to say "what else can you expect from those animals?" But when Israeli settlers do the same thing, everyone freaks out.

@LeopoldBloom I'm impressed by your tenacity but you can spare me from your aims to paint the colonizers and invaders of Palestine as victims of terrorism and to portray Israel as anything but what it has proven to be, pure imperialist, terroristic, apartheid colonization.

I have only seen Palestinians butchered and called terrorist by people exactly like you. And I, as well as an overwhrlming, worldwide majority of people, are very well tired of the scripted scheme to always viciously protect Israel's name by making Israelis the eternal, weak, needy victims and Palestinians the aggressors who always need some type of harder punishment, while constantly being invaded and colonized by more and more illegal settlers.

This is getting so bad that the USA had its government members condemn Israel's terrorism. That's speaking numbers when it is so ugly that the iron shield for Israel cannot keep sanctioning and turning a blind eye to how blatant, bold, and cocky the abuse of Palestinians is getting. And Israel cannot fall back on its tired old lies anymore.

I wonder what you'll say in the future. Or if you'll ever stand against Israel's destruction of Palestine and its constant atrocities. Name me a city that has to fall for you to finally cry out against so called "Israel." I actually am asking genuinely for where you limits are in your full support

@sexyjigsaw What country are you from? Because if you're from anywhere in the Americas (unless you're Native American) or Australia, you're living on land your ancestors stole. But that's OK because the original inhabitants either aren't around anymore or there are too few of them to matter.

If your solution is "push the Jews into the sea," that explains why Israel is so tenacious. I agree that Israel wasn't established under ideal conditions, but we're way past that. Everyone there now is entitled to live in peace and self-determination. I happen to support former President Rivlin's idea of a federation of self-governing cantons. You probably don't even know who he is.

At what point do you accept that there will never be a judenrein Palestinian state? Even the other Arab countries are getting tired of them. But yeah, maybe with enough rockets, they can goad a few religious lunatics into committing atrocities, and the U.S. will abandon them.

Just curious, do you have an opinion about U.S. support of Saudi Arabia's genocidal campaign against Yemen? What about China's treatment of the Uighurs or what amounts to cultural genocide in Tibet? Or are you going to dismiss that as whataboutism?

Ironically, the Palestinians are victims of antisemitism. If they were fighting any other country that didn't have Jews in it, they wouldn't have had any outside support and the conflict would have ended a long time ago. Nobody today even remembers the 15 million Indians and Pakistanis who were displaced around the same time Israel was established.

@LeopoldBloom I'm not surprised at your response. Keep deflecting and running away from the truth or engaging when challenged. Because we both know what it is.

No ugly history from anywhere you point your fingers can hide what the invaders of Palestine have done and are still doing to this day. The only thing becoming more apparent by the day are those who support it, love it, try to cover up for it, lie for it, and those who don't and stand against it, no matter what gaslighting and manipulation tactics they deploy. Twas a matter of time before the cover ups fell apart.

I will engage with you when you humble yourself and answer my request first, for you have abandoned responding to me and then want to make me answer so many questions. Why do you not answer me? Until then, don't let this simple difference between us on this one particular matter ruin your night or stay here on this site. But just know that the time has come for truth and the boy can only cry wolf for so long 🤷🏾‍♂️

@sexyjigsaw I'm opposed to the settlement policy, and I think the U.S. should scale back its military aid to Israel, and make them pay for most of it. I'm also disgusted with Netanyahu and the power grab going on right now. If you're asking what Israel could do to make me "stand against them," you'll have to clarify what that means.

What could the Palestinians do to make your rethink your support of them?

Did you know that Israeli Jews are donating money to the Huwara victims? Can you think of an example of Palestinians donating to Israeli victims of Palestinian violence? Or you don't hold them to a standard where you would expect that?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israelis-donate-over-nis-1-million-for-palestinian-victims-of-settler-rampage/

You're the one engaging in black and white thinking where Israel is diabolical while the Palestinians are saints. At least I have a nuanced view of the situation.

@LeopoldBloom I think it's kind of self explanatory. Is there a line Israel has to cross for you to condemn it and wish to have it undo its injustice? I guess that's another way to phrase it

They could slaughter innocent people, oppress people, take vengeance and then transgress in vengeance, etc.
Anything evil people should be condemned for 🤷🏾‍♂️
Killing noncombatant people

Nope. A couple of thoughts is firstly if they are Orthodox Jews. A second one is how os the money getting to the Palestinians? I just don't know. A third is what the Palestinians are doing with it. Which ones spend it. I simply cannot say

I find it astonishing to hear the word donate, from Palestine to its colonizers. But to be fair, I have yet to hear reports of that. I simply haven't heard of that yet as far as I know.

The one thing that still gets me is how you question this as if it is two equal parties hurting each other, instead of a literal invading, colonizing force and its victims. When you see Palestinians break a neighborhood they used to live in and want back, a Palestinian damaging his own home that was stolen, do you really expect him to pay his colonizer and have that considered a donation? Or do you consider that an atrocious violence? Like, I cannot get past the fact that people really want to pretend like because the place was illegally robbed that suddenly Israelis are victims of the people they've invaded and robbed by military force.

I do not think or say the Palestinians are saints at all. They can do bad things and I don't support it. I simply think that if the housekeeper hits the robber, the robber doesn't deserve sympathy and to cry and say "Hey, he hit me because I am here taking his stuff." Generally, people respond with "give the man back his stuff because he hurt you because you robbed him." Not to mention that all this violence started with invasion and murders, raids, and terrorism have been happening so much that the Palestinians are feeling choked. Gaza is an open air prison. If you acknowledge Israeli police shooting and killing innocent Palestinians is wrong, my question is, how should the Palestiniand defend themselves and what form of fighting back is acceptable?

@sexyjigsaw Israel has already crossed that line for me. The question is how you define "undo its injustice." Does that mean "every Jewish person leaves the country?" Disband the IDF and hand power over to Hamas? Give in to every Palestinian demand over Jerusalem and the right of return? Undoing every injustice is impossible. Germany can't undo the Holocaust, although they've made an effort by paying reparations. So maybe compensating Palestinians for lost property, along with a regional settlement where descendants of the 900,000 Jews who were forced to flee their homes in the surrounding countries after Israel was created are also compensated for lost property. Or that doesn't count?

The Palestinians have already crossed your line. And the ones trying to get their old houses back are a tiny minority, in fact, in all the accounts of Palestinian terror, I've never even heard of that. Most of it is attacks on innocent people who aren't living in houses that Palestinians used to own.

Israel is not a "colony" in any sense of the word. When Israeli Jews began emigrating in large numbers from Europe in the late 1800s, they were not going as representatives of European powers; they were moving to an area under the control of the Ottoman Empire at the time. The British Mandate was not a "colony" in the sense that Ghana or Kenya was. And many Palestinians are descended from people who also emigrated to the area - why aren't they considered "colonizers?"

In 2006, Israel withdrew from Gaza and forcibly removed all Jewish residents, making the area judenrein for the first time in history. The response was to elect Hamas, which until recently called for the death of every Jew in the world. Since then, they've downgraded that goal to only the death of every Jew in Israel. The blockade is a response to that and was imposed later.

Also, the West Bank wasn't "illegally robbed," it was captured in war. A war whose goal was to "push the Jews into the sea." Unless your view is that Israel itself was "illegally robbed" despite the UN resolution that created it, along with an independent Palestinian state. It wasn't Israel that objected to that arrangement.

As for how the Palestinians should fight back, we have several examples. The Irish Republican Army eventually gave up their demand for Northern Irish independence, and settled for an end to military occupation in exchange for disarmament. However, their goal wasn't the death of every British person in the UK or even in Northern Ireland itself. The African National Congress eventually worked with Botha's government to end apartheid in South Africa; their goal wasn't the death of every white person in that country either. So the first step should be a formal recognition of Israel by Hamas, the PA, and the surrounding Arab countries and Iran, along with Hamas disarming. The long-term solution would be a federation of self-governing cantons, as there's no way an independent Palestinian state would be viable. However, neither side is close to this and dismissing it with "I never said the Palestinians were saints" isn't addressing the problem.

Given your use of buzzwords, I can only assume that you think Israel is "illegitimate" and the only acceptable form of reparations would be to dissolve its government and put the PA and Hamas in charge.

@LeopoldBloom Jewish people have nothing to do with the colonialism. There were Palestinian Jews there for centuries and beyond. Nobody ever had a problem, so I don't know what exiling the innocents that have the right to live there would ever do. Properly compensating for the lost property is fine as well because taking good action and to be fair is necessary. Right to return and returning lost property is not that hard.

I hear you and I am against all forms of Palestinian violence that is aimed at innocent people. However, this does not mean we do not take steps to resolve or at least tell the truth. Of course it is easy to say they didn't live in the houses when they destroy them so that they can claim it is a new house. The definition of imperial colonization
[media=https://youtu.be/17kVc7nSEiM]
This is happening as we speak, this month. It's pretty slick to say they "didn't own" the land or house after you break it down to build something and say it doesn't belong to the old Palestinians losing from robbery.
Does this make them innocent people who just got surprised by some foreign invading Palestinian who is attacking them for no reason? That kind of understanding seems dismissive to the situation on the ground.

You ask a very good question. I need to learn about this now and I am open to anything you would like to share with me about it, too. I have not known anything of Palestinians colonizing and forcibly taking houses but if that happened, it's news for sure to me. Plenty of Jews also bought legally into the land. Nothing is wrong with that. It is the seizing of the land and imperial war, invasion, disregard for life and property rights that is the problem.

I am not sure of Hamas' history that much or any claims they make but it sounds like an exaggeration to say they want to kill every Jew in the world. That just sounds silly with how Palestinians have been coexisting with Jews since ever to ever. They still do. It's the zionist colonialization I can see problems with. If I missed such a statement from the public officials there at the PA, that would be my fault and a big problem. But I have however heard Bezalel Smotrich, finance minister, making statements that are not too far off from that. I just take him as some zionist/extremist who doesn't represent the Jews present there or the Israelis in general. People don't want conflict and oppression

And I hear you. Palestinians rejected because they don't want to settle for white people dictating to them that part of their land is going to be an Israeli state. And the war was fought to fight back against invasion. You keep saying "push Jews into the sea" when Jews had BEEN in Palestine for centuries before. Why do you conflate the invading Zionist force and the mandate from foreigners with Jews? Jews are not the Zionist invaders.

So this is what it all boils down to as the aim and goal. Recognize and finally give in to the invading forces because they say so. Just allow them to be recognized and finally give them permission to take the land and houses they stole and keep it. If that's your dream goal, then we'll see where it goes. But I simply cannot support a formal recognition of literal Zionist colonialism. The founders of Israel are colonialists writing about how they dream of colonizing the lands. We cannot deny or ignore it. It is against International Law (if you care about the UN). The British Mandate of Palestine will not ever be legitimate and the Palestinians never agreed to any of the war, pillaging, encroachment, or loss of property, ever. Until this is formally recognized, and "Israel" formall declared the truth and publically recognizes that Palestinians have been illegally forced and colonized by Zionists, then the conversation is skipping truth that needs to be spoken. And we know this is a death sentence to Israel's legitimacy. If Israel recognizes it like when France at least announced their oppressions, steps to reconciliation and healing can be made. But we cannot advocate for a full blown robbery and then make the victim "recognize" the robber and relinquish their property and then we start from there as if the Palestinians and any resistance they bring is outlandish and violatory of Israel

You are 100% correct in guessing that I believe Israel is illegitimate. I do think that the land should be free from its oppressors and that if Jews want to move in, let them apply and buy housing and land from the Palestinian authority. But Palestinians have been denied the right to be a nation, to own their land, and the negotiations always start with "Let's first just say you don't own what you had stolen from you." How about we deny the colonialist Zionists and we just respect the people and land. Jews can be there, but they can't just take over a country that never consented and force by military and demolition their own government. How about we just leave it at a respectful place. The Palestinians can let anyone move in and buy, but the zionism must cease anr the disrespectful imposition on Palestinians has to stop. Does that sound even remotely fair? Or are we skipping something?

@sexyjigsaw There was of course an indigenous Jewish population just as there was an indigenous Palestinian one. What I'm referring to are Palestinians whose grandparents and great-grandparents emigrated to the area at the same time European Jews did during the late Ottoman and British Mandate periods.

Until recently, the Hamas Charter called for the death of every Jew in the world. It's since been changed to only call for the death of every Jew in Israel. Obviously, the Israeli government can't negotiate with a group that wants to obliterate them.

The original UN plan included both a Jewish and independent Palestinian area. Dismissing this as " they didn't want white people to tell them what to do" is completely inaccurate, as Palestinians are "white" just as Jews are. Even the locals can't always tell the difference between Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews. Both groups exhibit a range of skin tones from white European (Ahed Tamimi would be an example) to Mediterranean olive, along with Ethiopian Jews who are unquestionably Black. The term "white" shouldn't be equated with "oppressor" just as "colonialism" shouldn't be applied here either.

Up to 1948, there was definitely Palestinian resistance to Jewish immigration, culminating in Israel's war of independence when it captured additional territory. In hindsight, if the Palestinian leadership of the time had accepted the UN plan, they'd have had an independent country for the first time in their entire history. However, that wasn't seen as an option, and the Mufti of Jerusalem had been an ally of Hitler during the war.

As I've said, I'm opposed to the settlement policy and the destruction of Palestinian homes. Your plan, to hand over the area to the Palestinians and "let the Jews live there" is a non-starter. For one thing, Hamas and the PA hate each other almost as much as they hate Israel. What's your plan to reconcile them?

After 75 years, Israel is as "legitimate" as any other country, many of which were also established under less than ideal circumstances. As I've said, I support an Israel-Palestine federation of self-governing cantons. That would mean Israelis in the West Bank would be part of Israel, but under local Palestinian rule. They would need the same rights and guarantees of citizenship that Israeli Arabs enjoy. It would also have to be a unity government. Your proposal sounds like it disenfranchises Israeli Jews, who would be required to live under Palestinian rule with no representation.

Ultimately, any solution to the conflict will require recognition of the situation as it exists, and not some ideal one based on alternative history. In The Guns of August, Barbara Tuchman blames the fall of the Ottoman Empire on Enver Pasha giving protection to the German vessels Goeben and Breslau by allowing them passage through the Dardanelles on August 9, 1914. This eventually led to their incorporation into the Ottoman navy with their German crews, and the entry of the formerly neutral Ottoman Empire into the war on the side of Germany. After Germany's loss, the Ottoman Empire collapsed in 1922 and the Levant became the British Mandate, with the results we live with today. Had the Ottomans remained neutral, it's possible that they would have retained control of the area, with Jews and Palestinians being treated as distinct ethnic groups within the Empire today. Unfortunately, we can't turn back the clock to that either.