God as defined by Christians cannot exist
A perfect God cannot do something that is not perfect. Therefore the Christian God as defined cannot exist.
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Persephonee · 26-30, F
James25 · 61-69, M
@Persephonee by creating us as imperfect beings God has done something that isn't perfect.
Persephonee · 26-30, F
@James25 But that's just an assertion - that he meant to make us perfect and didn't (or couldn't).
I'll grant there is nothing in our experience of the universe (never mind each other) that suggests God has created what seems to us a perfect universe filled with perfected people. We're flawed, 100%. But there is nothing in the Bible that suggests he intended perfection in the first place. (During creation, things are called good, not perfect - and they are different words in Hebrew too). We don't need to get into the theological reasons why a (to us) imperfect world might actually be precisely what God intended but we can if it interests you
Either way though I'd respectfully suggest there is no logical reason why a perfect being should be limited to only creating perfect things.
I'll grant there is nothing in our experience of the universe (never mind each other) that suggests God has created what seems to us a perfect universe filled with perfected people. We're flawed, 100%. But there is nothing in the Bible that suggests he intended perfection in the first place. (During creation, things are called good, not perfect - and they are different words in Hebrew too). We don't need to get into the theological reasons why a (to us) imperfect world might actually be precisely what God intended but we can if it interests you
Either way though I'd respectfully suggest there is no logical reason why a perfect being should be limited to only creating perfect things.
James25 · 61-69, M
@Persephonee
The assertion is that if you are perfect you cannot do something that is imperfect. Whether he meant to make us perfect and didn't or couldn't is evidence that he is not perfect. Your statement supports my conclusion. Your statement draws the conclusion that God is flawed by not being all powerful or not being all knowing. The outcome of any action by God must be perfect, to do otherwise is to conclude that God is not perfect because he is not all powerful or not all knowing.
But that's just an assertion - that he meant to make us perfect and didn't (or couldn't)
The assertion is that if you are perfect you cannot do something that is imperfect. Whether he meant to make us perfect and didn't or couldn't is evidence that he is not perfect. Your statement supports my conclusion. Your statement draws the conclusion that God is flawed by not being all powerful or not being all knowing. The outcome of any action by God must be perfect, to do otherwise is to conclude that God is not perfect because he is not all powerful or not all knowing.
James25 · 61-69, M
@Persephonee
This statement is illogical. There is a perfectly logical reason why a perfect being can only create perfect things. Because the act of creating something that is imperfect contradicts being perfect. The act itself is imperfect.
Either way though I'd respectfully suggest there is no logical reason why a perfect being should be limited to only creating perfect things.
This statement is illogical. There is a perfectly logical reason why a perfect being can only create perfect things. Because the act of creating something that is imperfect contradicts being perfect. The act itself is imperfect.
Persephonee · 26-30, F
@James25 I don't want to do 10 rounds on this and I'm sure you don't either - but to be logical a cause just has to be adequate for the effect, not that the effect exhaust/recreate every property of the cause. Perfection lies in appropriateness to the task and the intention.
As we don't know (the fullness of) God's intentions, our imperfection is, theologians would argue, completely consistent with God himself being perfect.
No one of any tradition whatsoever has ever said that God produces things identical to himself: creation isn't about copying but about giving existence to something. We're made in God's image but that doesn't make us clones.
As we don't know (the fullness of) God's intentions, our imperfection is, theologians would argue, completely consistent with God himself being perfect.
No one of any tradition whatsoever has ever said that God produces things identical to himself: creation isn't about copying but about giving existence to something. We're made in God's image but that doesn't make us clones.
James25 · 61-69, M
@Persephonee no, logical causation must be proportional and sufficient to its effect. Not just adequate or subjective perfection. Therefore God's creation must be proportional and sufficient to its effect which is an equal degree of perfection to itself. Not an adequate or subjective measurement of itself.
Persephonee · 26-30, F
@James25 If we're bringing logic into faith this is probably the wrong discussion lol