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BohemianBabe · M
@helenS I didn't say there were no Leftists who had racist ideas about Jews or anyone else. Especially if we're going back a hundred years, when those ideas were the norm. However, today's modern Right is utterly obsessed with anti-jewish conspiracy theories. Mainstream Republicans, both politicians and pundits, are constantly talking about "George Soros" and "Cultural Marxism."
BohemianBabe · M
@helenS So isn't it kinda dumb to say "The political left has often been obsessed by anti-semitic stereotypes" when it's really just the Right?
BohemianBabe · M
@helenS Dude, look how far back you have to go to find a few problematic quotes from prominent Leftists. I can find tons of racist quotes about Jews from prominent modern Conservatives.
Harmonium1923 · 51-55, M
@BohemianBabe Sadly you don’t have to look that far with respect to modern “progressives” either. (I’m both Jewish and a Democrat for what it’s worth).
BohemianBabe · M
@Harmonium1923 Can you name any mainstream Progressives that have spouted conspiracy theories about Jews?
Harmonium1923 · 51-55, M
@BohemianBabe Ilhan Omar. Rashida Tlaib. Or check pretty much any college campus these days. The president of Harvard lost her job over the issue, remember?
BohemianBabe · M
@Harmonium1923 Should I bother asking you to elaborate further on the conspiracy theories llhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib promoted? Like you're obviously lying here, but I guess I can make you look foolish for the other users who read these threads.
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BohemianBabe · M
@Harmonium1923
She was referring to how Zionists use campaign finance to have politicians do whatever Israel wants, which is objectively true. That's not a conspiracy theory, that's just what is happening.
This is why I have little patience for this nonsense that anti-jewish conspiracy theories exist anywhere outside of the Right.
But I will quote Tlaib on American support for Israel: “It’s all about the Benjamin’s, baby”. Referring to $100 bills because everyone knows Jews control global finance, right?
She was referring to how Zionists use campaign finance to have politicians do whatever Israel wants, which is objectively true. That's not a conspiracy theory, that's just what is happening.
This is why I have little patience for this nonsense that anti-jewish conspiracy theories exist anywhere outside of the Right.
BohemianBabe · M
@DogMan
Yes. Democrats generally support a two state solution. I haven't heard a single Democrat say Jews should have to leave Israel.
I say have a two state solution or give Palestinians the same rights as Jews. Either way, Israel shouldn't be an apartheid society anymore.
Democrats hate the Zionists because they do not want Jews to live in Israel. Is that a right wing conspiracy?
Yes. Democrats generally support a two state solution. I haven't heard a single Democrat say Jews should have to leave Israel.
I say have a two state solution or give Palestinians the same rights as Jews. Either way, Israel shouldn't be an apartheid society anymore.
Harmonium1923 · 51-55, M
Israel supports has offered a two-staye solution on numerous occasions. It was also part of the original plan in 1948. It has been rejected by the neighboring Arab countries and by the Palestinian leadership including Arafat, Fatah and Hamas in numerous occasions.
Meanwhile you say no one on the Left wants the Jews out of Israel and I hear one after another proudly proclaiming themselves “anti-Zionist” (which rams they oppose the existence of Israel as a Jewish nation) and using the slogan “from the River to the Sea”
I’ve said it and I’ll keep saying it. I’m Jewish. I’m a Democrat. I don’t agree with everything Israel does. I think the political right is deeply imbued with anti-Semitism—more so than the left. But to deny the existence of anti-Semitism in the left is at best naive, but in my view ignorant and dangerous.
Meanwhile you say no one on the Left wants the Jews out of Israel and I hear one after another proudly proclaiming themselves “anti-Zionist” (which rams they oppose the existence of Israel as a Jewish nation) and using the slogan “from the River to the Sea”
I’ve said it and I’ll keep saying it. I’m Jewish. I’m a Democrat. I don’t agree with everything Israel does. I think the political right is deeply imbued with anti-Semitism—more so than the left. But to deny the existence of anti-Semitism in the left is at best naive, but in my view ignorant and dangerous.
BohemianBabe · M
@Harmonium1923
Yes, Israel shouldn't be a Jewish nation. Israel shouldn't be an ethnostate. Everyone in Israel should have the same rights, regardless of ethnicity or religion.
If anything, the Left goes easy on the Jews. The same way we denounce White Supremacy in America, we should denounce Jewish Supremacy in Israel. We condemn Nazis who say America is a white nation, we should condemn Zionists who say Israel is a Jewish nation.
Meanwhile you say no one on the Left wants the Jews out of Israel and I hear one after another proudly proclaiming themselves “anti-Zionist” (which rams they oppose the existence of Israel as a Jewish nation) and using the slogan “from the River to the Sea”
Yes, Israel shouldn't be a Jewish nation. Israel shouldn't be an ethnostate. Everyone in Israel should have the same rights, regardless of ethnicity or religion.
If anything, the Left goes easy on the Jews. The same way we denounce White Supremacy in America, we should denounce Jewish Supremacy in Israel. We condemn Nazis who say America is a white nation, we should condemn Zionists who say Israel is a Jewish nation.
Harmonium1923 · 51-55, M
@BohemianBabe Thank you for saying clearly what I believed your views to be. If you see a Jewish state as white supremacy and start drawing comparisons to Nazis there is nothing more for me to say. I think we’re done here. I know I am.
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LeopoldBloom · M
@BohemianBabe Are you opposed to all ethnostates, or just a Jewish one?
Also, Israel isn't an ethnostate since 20% of its population isn't Jewish. Even the Jewish population isn't homogenous, as a majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi. If Israel is an "ethnostate," then so are most countries.
You're just tossing around the word "ethnostate" because you think it's automatically evil, even when it doesn't apply. Same with "apartheid," "genocide," and "colonial."
Also, Israel isn't an ethnostate since 20% of its population isn't Jewish. Even the Jewish population isn't homogenous, as a majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi. If Israel is an "ethnostate," then so are most countries.
You're just tossing around the word "ethnostate" because you think it's automatically evil, even when it doesn't apply. Same with "apartheid," "genocide," and "colonial."
BohemianBabe · M
@LeopoldBloom
I'm not even against Jews having an ethnostate, provided the minorities have the same rights as the Jews. However, the Israeli government has proven itself incapable of doing this, probably because it was built on Zionism, which is a racially supremacist ideology.
A country doesn't have to be 100% homogenous to be an ethnostate. Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Fascist Spain, Apartheid South Africa, and pre-sixties America all had minorities. They were ethnostates because they had laws and policies in place to maintain a power structure for one racial/ethnic group. In fact, white people were always the minority in South Africa. But it was still a white ethnostate under the system of apartheid.
Likewise, Israel has a system that keeps Jews in power, while Arabs are second class citizens.
Are you opposed to all ethnostates, or just a Jewish one?
I'm not even against Jews having an ethnostate, provided the minorities have the same rights as the Jews. However, the Israeli government has proven itself incapable of doing this, probably because it was built on Zionism, which is a racially supremacist ideology.
Also, Israel isn't an ethnostate since 20% of its population isn't Jewish.
A country doesn't have to be 100% homogenous to be an ethnostate. Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Fascist Spain, Apartheid South Africa, and pre-sixties America all had minorities. They were ethnostates because they had laws and policies in place to maintain a power structure for one racial/ethnic group. In fact, white people were always the minority in South Africa. But it was still a white ethnostate under the system of apartheid.
Likewise, Israel has a system that keeps Jews in power, while Arabs are second class citizens.
LeopoldBloom · M
@BohemianBabe Except the minorities do have the same rights. They have representation in the Knesset. They're a minority, so they don't dominate the government. There's no Uyghur party in the Chinese government or a Rohingya party in Myanmar, but for some reason, no one cares about oppressed Muslims as long as no Jews are involved. Saying that Israeli Arab citizens live under apartheid is complete nonsense. The Palestinians in the West Bank are not Israeli citizens, so apartheid doesn't apply to them either. It doesn't sound like you would accept anything other than an Arab-led government where Jews are a minority.
Interestingly, most Israeli Arabs prefer to live in Israel rather than emigrating to an Arab country where according to you they would suffer less oppression.
Interestingly, most Israeli Arabs prefer to live in Israel rather than emigrating to an Arab country where according to you they would suffer less oppression.
BohemianBabe · M
@LeopoldBloom
Absolutely not true.
The accusation that Israel is committing apartheid has been supported by United Nations investigators,[13] the African National Congress (ANC),[14] several human rights groups,[15][16] and many prominent Israeli political and cultural figures.[17][18] Those who support the accusations hold that certain laws explicitly or implicitly discriminate on the basis of creed or race, in effect privileging Jewish citizens and disadvantaging non-Jewish, and particularly Arab, citizens.[19] These include the Law of Return, the 2003 Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, and many laws regarding security, land and planning, citizenship, political representation in the Knesset (legislature), education and culture. The Nation-State Law, enacted in 2018, was widely condemned in both Israel and internationally as discriminatory,[20] and has also been called an "apartheid law" by members of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), opposition MPs, and other Arab and Jewish Israelis.[21][22]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid
Even in the West Bank, where Hamas doesn't operate, there are laws restricting where Arabs can go. Very similar to how South Africa used to be. And there's no way you can possibly defend the Jewish Settlers.
Thank you for providing another example. The West Bank is under Israeli control, but the Arabs there aren't given citizenship. Palestinians aren't allowed to vote for the government that rules over them. This is why it's pure propaganda when people say Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East.
Of course we care, but America isn't completely funding China. We can't force every government to behave ethically. Even if we cut funding to Israel, we can't force them to give Arabs the same rights as Jews. However, we can make it more difficult for them to commit war crimes by not giving them money for weapons.
I don't know if that's true and I'm not going to bother checking, because it means nothing. Even if it was true, it doesn't change the fact that Israel is an apartheid country in the middle of a genocide.
Except the minorities do have the same rights.
Absolutely not true.
The accusation that Israel is committing apartheid has been supported by United Nations investigators,[13] the African National Congress (ANC),[14] several human rights groups,[15][16] and many prominent Israeli political and cultural figures.[17][18] Those who support the accusations hold that certain laws explicitly or implicitly discriminate on the basis of creed or race, in effect privileging Jewish citizens and disadvantaging non-Jewish, and particularly Arab, citizens.[19] These include the Law of Return, the 2003 Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, and many laws regarding security, land and planning, citizenship, political representation in the Knesset (legislature), education and culture. The Nation-State Law, enacted in 2018, was widely condemned in both Israel and internationally as discriminatory,[20] and has also been called an "apartheid law" by members of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), opposition MPs, and other Arab and Jewish Israelis.[21][22]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid
Even in the West Bank, where Hamas doesn't operate, there are laws restricting where Arabs can go. Very similar to how South Africa used to be. And there's no way you can possibly defend the Jewish Settlers.
The Palestinians in the West Bank are not Israeli citizens, so apartheid doesn't apply to them either.
Thank you for providing another example. The West Bank is under Israeli control, but the Arabs there aren't given citizenship. Palestinians aren't allowed to vote for the government that rules over them. This is why it's pure propaganda when people say Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East.
There's no Uyghur party in the Chinese government or a Rohingya party in Myanmar, but for some reason, no one cares about oppressed Muslims as long as no Jews are involved.
Of course we care, but America isn't completely funding China. We can't force every government to behave ethically. Even if we cut funding to Israel, we can't force them to give Arabs the same rights as Jews. However, we can make it more difficult for them to commit war crimes by not giving them money for weapons.
Interestingly, most Israeli Arabs prefer to live in Israel rather than emigrating to an Arab country where according to you they would suffer less oppression.
I don't know if that's true and I'm not going to bother checking, because it means nothing. Even if it was true, it doesn't change the fact that Israel is an apartheid country in the middle of a genocide.
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