This page is a permanent link to the reply below and its nested replies. See all post replies »
1-25 of 28
Adstar · 56-60, M
@Penny
I have read the entire Bible and i have never read anything like this...
So you reject the comandment not to murder as phony? Or the Law against strealing? Or the law against adultery?
Or you you think you love people by stealing from them or by murdering them or by cheating on them with another persons husband?
@Adstar that anything done out of love in your heart is a sin
I have read the entire Bible and i have never read anything like this...
So you reject the comandment not to murder as phony? Or the Law against strealing? Or the law against adultery?
Or you you think you love people by stealing from them or by murdering them or by cheating on them with another persons husband?
Penny · 46-50, F
@Adstar i dont reject them as phony. i guess I am kind of in the "create your own reality" school of thought. what constitutes a sin is what you personally believe to be a sin. so essentially a sin is a sin against your own higher consciousness whatever that might be. not saying all the "rules" are completely arbitrary
Adstar · 56-60, M
@Penny
And what is the foundation of such a life philosophy? The imperfect person following that philosopy.. In the end the outcome of such a life policy is a faulty life where choices wax and wane depending on changing desires and life outlooks.. A foundation of quicksand.. Not the Rock..
No.. I trust that the standards of the LORD reveals as sins are sins.. If it was simply about what i personally believe to be sin, then i would be following the exact same philosophy as you are following..
I am kind of in the "create your own reality" school of thought
And what is the foundation of such a life philosophy? The imperfect person following that philosopy.. In the end the outcome of such a life policy is a faulty life where choices wax and wane depending on changing desires and life outlooks.. A foundation of quicksand.. Not the Rock..
what constitutes a sin is what you personally believe to be a sin
No.. I trust that the standards of the LORD reveals as sins are sins.. If it was simply about what i personally believe to be sin, then i would be following the exact same philosophy as you are following..
Penny · 46-50, F
@Adstar yes but if you read the passage first he said he didnt condemn her and that anyone without sin themselves should be the first to do so, then what he said sounded very flippant, not like an actual commandment. just another example of people taking the words in the bible and turning them into something they really might not be. he might not have been accusing her of sin, but just speaking with the grain of thought of the people condemning her
Penny · 46-50, F
@Adstar https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+5&version=ESV
John 5
English Standard Version
The Healing at the Pool on the Sabbath
5 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaic[a] called Bethesda,[b] which has five roofed colonnades. 3 In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed.[c] 5 One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” 7 The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.” 8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, take up your bed, and walk.” 9 And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked.
Now that day was the Sabbath. 10 So the Jews[d] said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to take up your bed.” 11 But he answered them, “The man who healed me, that man said to me, ‘Take up your bed, and walk.’” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” 13 Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, as there was a crowd in the place. 14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” 15 The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him. 16 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
Jesus Is Equal with God
18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
The Authority of the Son
19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father[e] does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Witnesses to Jesus
30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 31 If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36 But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from people. 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
Footnotes
John 5
English Standard Version
The Healing at the Pool on the Sabbath
5 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaic[a] called Bethesda,[b] which has five roofed colonnades. 3 In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed.[c] 5 One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” 7 The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.” 8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, take up your bed, and walk.” 9 And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked.
Now that day was the Sabbath. 10 So the Jews[d] said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to take up your bed.” 11 But he answered them, “The man who healed me, that man said to me, ‘Take up your bed, and walk.’” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” 13 Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, as there was a crowd in the place. 14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” 15 The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him. 16 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
Jesus Is Equal with God
18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
The Authority of the Son
19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father[e] does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Witnesses to Jesus
30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 31 If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36 But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from people. 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
Footnotes
Penny · 46-50, F
@Adstar but what you personally believe to be sin is what youve read and taken to heart. i personally need to make sense of things before i blindly believe them . my faith is in Jesus and God not the bible itself though the bible is also supposedly a record of what Jesus did and said too, so there's that, but its mixed up
Adstar · 56-60, M
@Penny
Jesus was not saying that adultery was now good.. Jesus came to earth to provide the Way sinners would be forgiven their sins.. He took away the earth death sentence from the Adultery law to give time for the woman in her life to repent of her sin and trust in the Way Jesus had made to pay the death penalty for their sin..
Jesus saved the woman from being stoned to death in this world because He had come to reveal the gift of sacrificing His own life to pay the death penalty for the woman caught in adultery.. Jesus willingly died in her place to save her not only from the stoning death penalty but to also save her from the eternal judgement for sin in the eternal lake of fire..
@Adstar yes but if you read the passage first he said he didnt condemn her and that anyone without sin themselves should be the first to do so,
Jesus was not saying that adultery was now good.. Jesus came to earth to provide the Way sinners would be forgiven their sins.. He took away the earth death sentence from the Adultery law to give time for the woman in her life to repent of her sin and trust in the Way Jesus had made to pay the death penalty for their sin..
Jesus saved the woman from being stoned to death in this world because He had come to reveal the gift of sacrificing His own life to pay the death penalty for the woman caught in adultery.. Jesus willingly died in her place to save her not only from the stoning death penalty but to also save her from the eternal judgement for sin in the eternal lake of fire..
Penny · 46-50, F
@Adstar this is not aimed at you personally but an extract from the passage i posted:
38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
Penny · 46-50, F
@Adstar this passage is the only other instance where Jesus says go and sin no more. its very telling i think about Jesus' attitude about sin going by what he says about the commandments. just a sec and ill pick it out.
eta- 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
eta- 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
Adstar · 56-60, M
@Penny
Then why post it to me in a discussion about sin?
I have no problem with what Jesus said here..
I would say that people who refuse to accept their sin as sin and who refuse to come to Jesus to believe Him and trust in the atonement He secured on the cross for the forgiveness of their sins more closely conform to who Jesus is talking to in this portion of scripture..
For me i acknowledge all my sins as being sins. I acknowledge all the teachings of God in regard to sin as true and good and anything i have done to transgress them needs the covering of the atonement of Jesus.. So i came to Jesus so that i may have eternal life in my early 20's.. And His atoning blood has been covering me ever since then..
@Adstar this is not aimed at you personally but an extract from the passage i posted:
38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
Then why post it to me in a discussion about sin?
I have no problem with what Jesus said here..
I would say that people who refuse to accept their sin as sin and who refuse to come to Jesus to believe Him and trust in the atonement He secured on the cross for the forgiveness of their sins more closely conform to who Jesus is talking to in this portion of scripture..
For me i acknowledge all my sins as being sins. I acknowledge all the teachings of God in regard to sin as true and good and anything i have done to transgress them needs the covering of the atonement of Jesus.. So i came to Jesus so that i may have eternal life in my early 20's.. And His atoning blood has been covering me ever since then..
Adstar · 56-60, M
@Penny
And who do you think wrote the 10 commandments ??? Who did God deliver the Law of the Torah through?? Moses.. So the Law delivered by Moses condemns EVERYONE.. The Jews of the times of Jesus where condemned by the Law delivered through Moses.. Because each and every one of them broke the Law of Moses and where therefore condemned to the death penalty for sin.. The whole reason for the LAW was to cause people to know they needed the Atonement of the LORD Jesus to be Redeemed from death. to be saved from the penalty for breaking the Laws that Moses delivered..
Now if the Jews in the audience listening to Jesus truly believed Moses they would have known they where doomed because of the law breaking and would have jumped with enthusiasm to accept the teachings of Jesus which provided the solution to the death penalty of the Law..
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words
And who do you think wrote the 10 commandments ??? Who did God deliver the Law of the Torah through?? Moses.. So the Law delivered by Moses condemns EVERYONE.. The Jews of the times of Jesus where condemned by the Law delivered through Moses.. Because each and every one of them broke the Law of Moses and where therefore condemned to the death penalty for sin.. The whole reason for the LAW was to cause people to know they needed the Atonement of the LORD Jesus to be Redeemed from death. to be saved from the penalty for breaking the Laws that Moses delivered..
Now if the Jews in the audience listening to Jesus truly believed Moses they would have known they where doomed because of the law breaking and would have jumped with enthusiasm to accept the teachings of Jesus which provided the solution to the death penalty of the Law..
Penny · 46-50, F
@Adstar i dont personally think Jesus came to save us from being condemned to hell because of breaking the laws that Moses gave. not saying there's no such thing as personal or otherwise sin. Jesus came to guide us and apparently not into worshipping the bible or our possibly flawed interpretations of it.
Adstar · 56-60, M
@Penny
Then you will be judged by God for every time you have sinned and you will not be forgiven anything wrong you have done or any good thing you have failed to do.. Without the Atonement of the LORD Jesus a person has no chance because all people sin..
@Adstar i dont personally think Jesus came to save us from being condemned to hell because of breaking the laws that Moses gave.
Then you will be judged by God for every time you have sinned and you will not be forgiven anything wrong you have done or any good thing you have failed to do.. Without the Atonement of the LORD Jesus a person has no chance because all people sin..
Adstar · 56-60, M
Adstar · 56-60, M
@Vector
Says the hypocrite who has posted repeated debating posts on this topic.. If you don't think there is no point in debating then you should live up to your belief and cease posting on the topic.. That's if you are not a hypocrite?
Debate is rather pointless, time consuming and counter productive. Youll be here all night
Says the hypocrite who has posted repeated debating posts on this topic.. If you don't think there is no point in debating then you should live up to your belief and cease posting on the topic.. That's if you are not a hypocrite?
@Penny That statement you just made about there are no sins actually listed in the Bible? Where did you get that? Your statement contradicts your whole post. Sins are listed in the bible. I can't believe what I'm reading in the replies here. I'm beginning to think from these replies, that nobody reads their Bible, that commented amongst the naysayers.
1-25 of 28