"Atheism" is a denial of sin and rebellion against God who calls it out! When God saves us we are not deceived. we realize we need a savior,
[b][c=BF0080]JESUS SAVES![/c][/b]
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ninalanyon · 61-69, T
So your complaint encompasses pagans and Hindus and Buddhists and all the other religions that do not acknowledge the trinity, not just atheists?
Saying that one needs a saviour is a much stronger and more specific claim than saying merely that a creator god exists. If needing a saviour and that that saviour is Jesus is part of the test then your argument must be not merely against atheists but also against Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Shintoism, paganism, Zoroastrianism, Baha'i, etc.
Saying that one needs a saviour is a much stronger and more specific claim than saying merely that a creator god exists. If needing a saviour and that that saviour is Jesus is part of the test then your argument must be not merely against atheists but also against Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Shintoism, paganism, Zoroastrianism, Baha'i, etc.
Carazaa · F
@ninalanyon
Thank you for writing! Ok this is what I think. All religions that acknowledge "gods" have one thing in common, they teach that people can attain some kind of peace with the creator through [i]deeds.[/i] All religions in every country have rituals to appease their gods. You find chantings, dances, and sacrifices to gods to gain acceptance. And they believe they can earn acceptance through their own [i]deeds;[/i] All except Christianity.
This is why Christianity is different because it is not what [i]we[/i] do, but what [i]Jesus[/i] did for us. He cleansed us sparkling clean. We can 't do anything. We can never gain heaven on ourselves because "All have sinned and come short of Gods Glory" We are all sinners! But Atheists deny there is sin and they hate christianity most of all because The Lord tells them they are sinners, and he punishes sin with death. "The wages of sin is death" So people are super offended that anyone will tell them how to live their lives. And they hate these crazy christians who keep harping on repentance.
But it is because we love you, and want to see you in heaven.
I think "real" christians see all sin the same it doesn't matter what a person does. If they aren't following Jesus they won't enter heaven. Besides, life can be kind of lonely rebelling against God I think. I find such joy leaning on God, because he helps me. So I want all people to come to Jesus. But it is hard at times being a christian too. Lonely at times. But God is there to comfort.
"Come to me all who are weary and heavy laden, Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Jesus words, Matthew 11
Thank you for writing! Ok this is what I think. All religions that acknowledge "gods" have one thing in common, they teach that people can attain some kind of peace with the creator through [i]deeds.[/i] All religions in every country have rituals to appease their gods. You find chantings, dances, and sacrifices to gods to gain acceptance. And they believe they can earn acceptance through their own [i]deeds;[/i] All except Christianity.
This is why Christianity is different because it is not what [i]we[/i] do, but what [i]Jesus[/i] did for us. He cleansed us sparkling clean. We can 't do anything. We can never gain heaven on ourselves because "All have sinned and come short of Gods Glory" We are all sinners! But Atheists deny there is sin and they hate christianity most of all because The Lord tells them they are sinners, and he punishes sin with death. "The wages of sin is death" So people are super offended that anyone will tell them how to live their lives. And they hate these crazy christians who keep harping on repentance.
But it is because we love you, and want to see you in heaven.
I think "real" christians see all sin the same it doesn't matter what a person does. If they aren't following Jesus they won't enter heaven. Besides, life can be kind of lonely rebelling against God I think. I find such joy leaning on God, because he helps me. So I want all people to come to Jesus. But it is hard at times being a christian too. Lonely at times. But God is there to comfort.
"Come to me all who are weary and heavy laden, Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Jesus words, Matthew 11
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
@Carazaa Some may hate you. Most are just exasperated at the inconsistencies, and yes the harping on. But what offends me today is the idea that one can continue sinning and then repent on ones deathbed and gain everlasting heaven; that seems not merely ludicrous but offensive and in itself a sin against all those who spend their lives attempting to make the world a better place.
Insofar as I can speak for atheists generally (not very far at all, we are diverse with no organized creed) I don't think that we do deny the existence of sin. We just simplify the concept by including everyone and everything as something that can be sinned against. No need for gods.
I'm minded to quote one of my favourite passages on sin and religion:
[quote]
“You’d certain enjoy yourself at the Synod, anyway. They’ve been known to argue for days about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.”
He could almost feel Granny’s mind working. At last she said, “What size pin?”
“I don’t know that, I’m afraid.”
“Well, if it’s an ordinary household pin, then there’ll be sixteen.”
“Sixteen angels?”
“That’s right.”
“Why?”
“I don’t know. Perhaps they like dancing.”
The mule picked its way down a bank. The mist was getting thicker here.
“You’ve [i]counted[/i] sixteen?” said Oats eventually.
“No, but it’s as good an answer as any you’ll get. And that’s what your holy men discuss, is it?”
“Not usually. There is a very interesting debate raging at the moment about the nature of sin, for example.”
“And what do they think? Against it, are they?”
“It’s not as simple as that. It’s not a black and white issue. There are so many shades of gray.”
“Nope.”
“Pardon?”
“There’s no grays, [i]only[/i] white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.”
“It’s a lot more complicated than that—”
“No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.”
“Oh, I’m sure there are worse crimes—”
“But they [i]starts[/i] with thinking about people as things…”/quote]
Insofar as I can speak for atheists generally (not very far at all, we are diverse with no organized creed) I don't think that we do deny the existence of sin. We just simplify the concept by including everyone and everything as something that can be sinned against. No need for gods.
I'm minded to quote one of my favourite passages on sin and religion:
[quote]
“You’d certain enjoy yourself at the Synod, anyway. They’ve been known to argue for days about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.”
He could almost feel Granny’s mind working. At last she said, “What size pin?”
“I don’t know that, I’m afraid.”
“Well, if it’s an ordinary household pin, then there’ll be sixteen.”
“Sixteen angels?”
“That’s right.”
“Why?”
“I don’t know. Perhaps they like dancing.”
The mule picked its way down a bank. The mist was getting thicker here.
“You’ve [i]counted[/i] sixteen?” said Oats eventually.
“No, but it’s as good an answer as any you’ll get. And that’s what your holy men discuss, is it?”
“Not usually. There is a very interesting debate raging at the moment about the nature of sin, for example.”
“And what do they think? Against it, are they?”
“It’s not as simple as that. It’s not a black and white issue. There are so many shades of gray.”
“Nope.”
“Pardon?”
“There’s no grays, [i]only[/i] white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.”
“It’s a lot more complicated than that—”
“No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.”
“Oh, I’m sure there are worse crimes—”
“But they [i]starts[/i] with thinking about people as things…”/quote]
Carazaa · F
@ninalanyon I appreciate your honesty! I am confused why you think there are inconsistencies. I just think God is amazingly gracious, and I hope everyone gets to heaven. I completely forgive the mass murderers or anyone if they repent. Even if they don't repent. I love the sinner regardless. But I do think Justice is right. God is just. He will repay evil for evil. Jesus said if we judge in our heart it is murder. It makes me think of this parable that Jesus told, Like I said all sin will lead to death, and following Jesus to everlasting life.
[b]The parable of the vineyard workers (Matthew 20: 1–16)[/b]
Jesus tells the parable of the workers in the vineyard to further explain what the Kingdom of God is like.
A landowner goes out early in the morning and hires men, agreeing to pay them the daily rate - a silver coin for a day’s work.
He hires them at various times throughout the day - 9am, 12pm, 3pm and 5pm and promises all of the workers a fair wage.
When the end of the day came, the landowner said to his manager to pay the workers, starting with those who had been hired last. Those who began working at 5pm were given the daily rate - one silver coin.
When it came to those who had been hired first (early in the morning) they thought that they were going to receive more. When they too were given the standard daily wage they began to grumble. They were angry because they had done a lot more work than those who had started later in the day.
The landowner did not listen to their complaints and reminded them that they had agreed to the daily rate of pay when they were hired. He said, “Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or are you envious because I am generous?”
The landowner then says, “The last will be first and the first will be last.”
[b]The parable of the vineyard workers (Matthew 20: 1–16)[/b]
Jesus tells the parable of the workers in the vineyard to further explain what the Kingdom of God is like.
A landowner goes out early in the morning and hires men, agreeing to pay them the daily rate - a silver coin for a day’s work.
He hires them at various times throughout the day - 9am, 12pm, 3pm and 5pm and promises all of the workers a fair wage.
When the end of the day came, the landowner said to his manager to pay the workers, starting with those who had been hired last. Those who began working at 5pm were given the daily rate - one silver coin.
When it came to those who had been hired first (early in the morning) they thought that they were going to receive more. When they too were given the standard daily wage they began to grumble. They were angry because they had done a lot more work than those who had started later in the day.
The landowner did not listen to their complaints and reminded them that they had agreed to the daily rate of pay when they were hired. He said, “Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or are you envious because I am generous?”
The landowner then says, “The last will be first and the first will be last.”
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
@Carazaa
[quote] I am confused why you think there are inconsistencies.[/quote]
[quote]He cleansed us sparkling clean. [/quote]
[quote]I completely forgive the mass murderers or anyone if they repent. Even if they don't repent.[/quote]
If we are sparkling clean how come there is still sin in the world?
[quote]We are all sinners![/quote]
[quote]The Lord tells them they are sinners, and he punishes sin with death. "The wages of sin is death" [/quote]
If we are all sinners and all sinners are punished with death how does this accord with Jesus having washed us 'sparkling clean'?
What does death mean here? Does it mean the sinner is denied access to heaven even if they repent?
[quote] I am confused why you think there are inconsistencies.[/quote]
[quote]He cleansed us sparkling clean. [/quote]
[quote]I completely forgive the mass murderers or anyone if they repent. Even if they don't repent.[/quote]
If we are sparkling clean how come there is still sin in the world?
[quote]We are all sinners![/quote]
[quote]The Lord tells them they are sinners, and he punishes sin with death. "The wages of sin is death" [/quote]
If we are all sinners and all sinners are punished with death how does this accord with Jesus having washed us 'sparkling clean'?
What does death mean here? Does it mean the sinner is denied access to heaven even if they repent?
Carazaa · F
@ninalanyon
I am not sure exactly what you are asking but does this answer you?
When Jesus died on the cross and he rose again to prove that we will all be raised after he comes back he paid for all sin for those who follow him, for all those who have faith in God's Son. We are all spotless infront of God after he saves us, after the Holy Spirit comes into our hearts and we are born again and follow Jesus then our sins are paid for [i]in full.[/i]
When our bodies die our souls go to heaven and will be reunited with our transformed bodies after our dead bodies are raised from the graves. If we don't have faith in God's Son, then we will not enter heaven, because our sins have not been paid for. Then we will have punishment for our sins. Then we will die spiritually. (I am not sure if there will be a final death or punishment forever for the unfaithful) since John 3:16 says
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him will not [b]perish[/b] but have everlasting life."
It is possible that some will perish totally. God is so loving that I have a feeling that might be true rather than physical eternal punishment. It says "The smoke" of their torment will go up forever. That might not include conscience. But who knows exactly what will happen if we do not love God after death. I hope I will go to heaven, where there are no tears ever forever.
I am not sure exactly what you are asking but does this answer you?
When Jesus died on the cross and he rose again to prove that we will all be raised after he comes back he paid for all sin for those who follow him, for all those who have faith in God's Son. We are all spotless infront of God after he saves us, after the Holy Spirit comes into our hearts and we are born again and follow Jesus then our sins are paid for [i]in full.[/i]
When our bodies die our souls go to heaven and will be reunited with our transformed bodies after our dead bodies are raised from the graves. If we don't have faith in God's Son, then we will not enter heaven, because our sins have not been paid for. Then we will have punishment for our sins. Then we will die spiritually. (I am not sure if there will be a final death or punishment forever for the unfaithful) since John 3:16 says
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him will not [b]perish[/b] but have everlasting life."
It is possible that some will perish totally. God is so loving that I have a feeling that might be true rather than physical eternal punishment. It says "The smoke" of their torment will go up forever. That might not include conscience. But who knows exactly what will happen if we do not love God after death. I hope I will go to heaven, where there are no tears ever forever.
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
@Carazaa So you are saying that the most vile mass murderer (Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.) can repent and come to have faith and they will then have the same status in heaven as a person who led a spotless and faithful life?
How do these two statements go together:
[quote]"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life." [/quote]
[quote]The Lord tells them they are sinners, and he punishes sin with death. "The wages of sin is death" [/quote]
How do these two statements go together:
[quote]"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life." [/quote]
[quote]The Lord tells them they are sinners, and he punishes sin with death. "The wages of sin is death" [/quote]
Carazaa · F
@ninalanyon [quote]So you are saying that the most vile mass murderer (Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.) can repent and come to have faith and they will then have the same status in heaven as a person who led a spotless and faithful life?
[/quote]
No one leads a spotless life. We are all murderers according to Jesus. He says if you judge another in your heart you are a murdered! We all deserve punishment and death
[/quote]
[quote]How do these two statements go together:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life."
The Lord tells them they are sinners, and he punishes sin with death. "The wages of sin is death"[/quote]
God tells us that we deserve death but because he loves us he took our punishment. To me it seems like God is very loving. He just wants us to love and follow him which is not too much to ask, no?
[/quote]
No one leads a spotless life. We are all murderers according to Jesus. He says if you judge another in your heart you are a murdered! We all deserve punishment and death
[/quote]
[quote]How do these two statements go together:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life."
The Lord tells them they are sinners, and he punishes sin with death. "The wages of sin is death"[/quote]
God tells us that we deserve death but because he loves us he took our punishment. To me it seems like God is very loving. He just wants us to love and follow him which is not too much to ask, no?
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
@Carazaa [quote]No one leads a spotless life. We are all murderers according to Jesus. He says if you judge another in your heart you are a murdered! We all deserve punishment and death[/quote]
So those people who I will not mention again are as acceptable to your god as a person such as John Wesley? His Thoughts on Slavery is full of judgments. See https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/68144
Will you count him as the equal in infamy as the slavers he was judging?
If so then your creed is evil and I want no part of it.
So those people who I will not mention again are as acceptable to your god as a person such as John Wesley? His Thoughts on Slavery is full of judgments. See https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/68144
Will you count him as the equal in infamy as the slavers he was judging?
If so then your creed is evil and I want no part of it.
JimboSaturn · 51-55, M
@ninalanyon We are all murderers according to Jesus??!!! WTF?
Carazaa · F
@ninalanyon [quote]So those people who I will not mention again are as acceptable to your god as a person such as John Wesley?[/quote]
Yes, they are all spotless if they repent and follow Jesus. (If they don't then they lied, or thought they were forgiven but weren't really)
Yes, they are all spotless if they repent and follow Jesus. (If they don't then they lied, or thought they were forgiven but weren't really)