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Science Lesson For The Atheists

In occidental culture, in general, the believers promulgate the apparent illusion of their possession of a superior morality. Why? Because it perpetuates their ideology. Their world view. "You don't believe what I believe so you're going to hell." How myopic and obtuse. Because religion, in that culture specifically, either as a result of the ideology or to support it, took upon itself political adversity with the emerging intelligentsia. Since that adversary arose from the illusion and the obvious logical flaws it had incorporated historically - hypocrisy, ignorance, xenophobia, oppression, repression, and violence through military, legislative and social dominance - by support of the masses, there are some important lessons to be learned from it.

The teachings of the believers was full of holes. They weren't harmonious with the source. In order for, or as a result of the implementation of their sociopolitical illusion it was necessarily so. Their ideology wasn't compatible with their teachings. That doesn't matter. It's a small sacrifice because their ideology is what became important.

So, there's this reality created from that transmogrification of the source and mythology. If I had to define religion that's pretty much how I would put it. That's also how I would describe the world around me. Reality. The sacred and profane. Secular and religious. Quixotic and mundane.

So there is this logical excursion that should be derived from this turn of events. Critically examine, explore, educate, illuminate. Or, instead, just repeat it. Argue, judge, sentence and eliminate. Become your enemy. Just another side of the ideological coin of reality. The world view.

[Laughs] My theory is that the latter is what is happening to science. That's what I mean when I say "the end" is near and that science will destroy the world. Science isn't a religion, it's a byproduct of religion. Created by religion: the student becomes the master. Science is not only eliminating religion it is surpassing it.

The lesson for atheists, or just the unbeliever, is that it doesn't matter if religion and the Bible is wrong and nonsense, because it is the formed "reality" and instead of arguing what is right and wrong, perhaps you should look at it like that.

From my perspective, from my Biblically founded perception of reality, it's done. So, stopping it isn't anywhere near my priority. My priority is simply observation.

That's why I want an exchange of ideas here. I want to learn, not from the books of science, but from adversity. Both sides. Without the propaganda.

It astounds me that those who wear scientific methodology on their sleeves are painfully unaware or unwilling to do that. Not for the historical preservation of the vanquished. To educate so as not to repeat history. But rather, for the ideological replacement.

Right and wrong. Us and them. A far more compelling process than science. As it had been with the adversary. So the illusion propagated by the unbelievers is of intellectual superiority.

Yeah, I know, I know. It is funny. So is the illusion of the religious of moral superiority.

So . . . if I'm right in my Biblically founded perspective then you will attempt to destroy all that I believe in but God will intervene. Science will be taken from your cold dead hands and placed into mine. Not by me. Not by my argument or my violence. By God. So, if I'm wrong nothing happens through my will.

If you're right you will destroy first science and then the world.

If I'm right everyone who follows ideological science will be destroyed. If you're right everyone will be destroyed.
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hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
Science has become a god and the worship of said god is called scientism. The adherents to scientism thinks that their god disproves Yahweh even as more and more serious scientists are finding more and more evidence for the existence of Yahweh.
@hippyjoe1955 Okay. Do you think what you do here perpetuates that or not?

Also, it begs the question, if science is the false god of what significance is it that it finds more and more evidence of Yahweh? Similar to what Jesus said about a kingdom divided. (Luke 11:18)

So that tells me that you have an ideological issue.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@AkioTsukino The preponderance of evidence points to the existence of Yahweh. That completely aside the facts are that atheists don't want Yahweh to exist so they make all kinds of silly claims in an attempt to explain away the evidence. Of course they claim it is science. It is not science. It is their religion.
@hippyjoe1955 [quote]The preponderance of evidence points to the existence of Yahweh. That completely aside the facts are that atheists don't want Yahweh to exist so they make all kinds of silly claims in an attempt to explain away the evidence. Of course they claim it is science. It is not science. It is their religion.[/quote]

Exactly. I agree 100%. The question is what do we do about it? If your answer is nothing I think you're headed in the right direction. If your answer is fight them I think you're casting pearls before swine. That sounds derogatory, but actually it's practical. It isn't saying that they are pigs, it's saying they have no use of the evidence unless it confirms their belief. Let the (spiritually) dead bury the (literally) dead.

Same with us.

So what do we do about that?
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@AkioTsukino Our job is to proclaim the Gospel. We have no idea when the seeds we sow or the plants we water will bear fruit. However we are not to hide our light under a bushel basket. We proclaim in season and out of season.
@hippyjoe1955 [quote]Our job is to proclaim the Gospel. We have no idea when the seeds we sow or the plants we water will bear fruit. However we are not to hide our light under a bushel basket. We proclaim in season and out of season.[/quote]

Exactly. So, don't preach to the choir and recognize that the bushel basket is this. The casting of pearls before swine. There is no need to proclaim to the believer and no need to rebuke the unbeliever. The season is outside these gates. Trough, as it were. You're here, not for proclamation. This isn't your season. You have to move into your season. What are you feeding upon?

I'll ask again. What do we do? What's the best course of action or inaction?
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@AkioTsukino If we don't talk to the unbeliever there is no point in being Christian. If we don't talk to the believer there is no point in being Christian. The fact is that it is He who works through us and not us who does these things. We remain faithful to Him as He guides us. The Christian Church did not spread throughout the Roman Empire because Paul decided to stay home and make tents.
@hippyjoe1955 [quote]If we don't talk to the unbeliever there is no point in being Christian. If we don't talk to the believer there is no point in being Christian. The fact is that it is He who works through us and not us who does these things. We remain faithful to Him as He guides us.[/quote]

This is what I used to do until I figured out it was - stupid and pointless. Here's how I know.

1. The unbeliever has made a choice. You've already agreed to this point.
2. You attitude, the same as mine in the past, isn't either conducive to instruction nor reflective of Christ. Christ presented the data and left it up to God and the people he addressed. You've already agreed to this point as well. Paul's words. Plant the seed.
3. The above cancels out his working through us, it isn't compatible to the particular idiomatic desire within us. That implies it's coming from somewhere else. From us. From our ego.

[quote]The Christian Church did not spread throughout the Roman Empire because Paul decided to stay home and make tents.[/quote]

Actually, it did and didn't. The Christian church spread throughout the Roman empire because the Senate declared him chief Augustus and Pontifex Maximus. He took the data Paul had freely distributed while making tents and sponsored it by the state. With, mind you, his pagan nonsense.

So, what do we do? Calling out the unbelievers, returning their vitriol in kind can either be an appeasement of our own egos and useful as such if we see it for what it is and not think it's something it isn't.

While doing that, we learn. We observe. So the tit for tat is okay as long as we are honest and have integrity about the exchange. There has to be something else though. That we do learn and observe and that we also proclaim to others.

Wipe the dust off our feet and move on. But understand what's going on. So we don't become part of the problem. My opinion. That's what I've learned.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@AkioTsukino So you negate the words of Christ? "Go into all the world and make disciples'? Hmmm
@hippyjoe1955 [quote]So you negate the words of Christ? "Go into all the world and make disciples'? Hmmm[/quote]

No. I'm saying your approach isn't conducive to making disciples. Christ said go in and tell them and if they don't buy it move on. He didn't say hammer it into their heads and make them believe and get into politics so God is on your side. He rejected the temptation of Satan who offered him the world, not just of his time but of ours. He ran away when they wanted to make him king. He chased the money changers out of the temple. He said live by the sword and die by the sword. He said many will say to him 'Lord! Lord! We have done powerful works in your name' and respond to it by saying 'I never knew you.'
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@AkioTsukino And you know this how? Honest question. What makes you think that my approach doesn't work? I don't keep track but I would be willing to put my conversion rate up against yours any day of the week. What did Jesus say of John the Baptist?
@hippyjoe1955 [quote]And you know this how? Honest question. What makes you think that my approach doesn't work?[/quote]

I've told you. I did it for over a quarter of a century. Almost longer than Jesus lived.

[quote]I don't keep track but I would be willing to put my conversion rate up against yours any day of the week.[/quote]

What's that? Time? Count of posts? I don't understand. If you're talking that stuff you have my long history to contend with. Many, many forums, websites of my own and others. If you're talking about success rate, I'm willing to hazard a guess that we are, percentage wise, neck and neck.

It doesn't work. I've explained this.

[quote]What did Jesus say of John the Baptist?[/quote]

He needed a bath? I'm not being flippant. Jesus wanted John to baptize him. Baptism comes from the pagan ceremony of public declaration. John thought he wasn't qualified to baptize Jesus.

I don't think that was the point you were trying to make, so you may have to be more specific.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@AkioTsukino Jesus spoke about John the Baptist. What did He say? If you don't know that then no wonder your contention for the faith failed so miserably.
@hippyjoe1955 [quote]Jesus spoke about John the Baptist. What did He say? If you don't know that then no wonder your contention for the faith failed so miserably.[/quote]

Excuse me? My contention for the faith?

Perhaps you could council me on my faith and correct me? What did Jesus say about John the Baptist that pertains contextually to our discussion?
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@AkioTsukino You are the one that said you failed. I am simply going on what you said about your quarter century. My 40 years has been the exact opposite. What is the difference? I don't know but if you don't know what Jesus said about John the Baptist it may explain why you did not have success over your 25 years.
@hippyjoe1955 I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. That's probably my fault. I tend to be verbose and cryptic.

For over 25 years I insulted unbelievers. Often while drunk and stoned. I didn't start that stuff until I became a believer. Why? Oh, and I think I've mentioned in another discussion that I was homosexual and at that time promiscuous. So much of that 25 years was me lashing out at my own failings. Not that I didn't have faith in Jehovah, but rather I didn't have faith in myself.

But my approach was very similar to yours. Arrogant. Overconfident. Rude. Aggressive. Like I said, I'm not judging you for that. It taught me a lot about myself and Jehovah. Israel, you know, is a word that means to contend with, wrestle, grapple with God. I think that's what we have to do.

When we become self-righteous we tend not to do that because we become our own God. Just like the evolutionists do. We don't tend to contend with ourselves. [b][c=A69800]UNLESS[/c][/b] we can rise above it by seeing what it truly is.

That's the difference.

[quote]I don't know but if you don't know what Jesus said about John the Baptist it may explain why you did not have success over your 25 years.[/quote]

You don't know but if I don't know? Not a good start.

But, like I said, if I've lost my faith and you haven't then help the prodigal son return. Why not explain to me what Jesus said about John. I could tell you a lot but the application you are reaching for may not be the same as mine.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@AkioTsukino And you are still projecting your own failures. This time on to me. You found your approach didn't work. That is perfectly fine. That is your approach. I have found my approach works for me. That too is perfectly fine. Funny how you mentioned that your insults came to the fore while under the influence. As a Christian do you think that is wise? Not the insults the being under the influence? I'm not a teetotaller but getting drunk or stoned is not me or my way of doing evangelism. BTW I am not a one trick pony either. If the person is a serious seeker I am much different than I am when dealing with some loudmouthed atheist on a social site such as SW. If the atheist is being an idiot and inconsistent in his/her beliefs I call them out. If the person I am talking to is genuinely seeking then I gently show him/her the way. Your experience is different. Being completely honest I don't care if you decided to stop evangelizing. I am not your boss or your advisor. I am like the runner running my own race. You do you and I do me. I answer to Him who sent me not the atheist who thinks he/she knows it all.
@hippyjoe1955 [quote]And you are still projecting your own failures. This time on to me. You found your approach didn't work. That is perfectly fine. That is your approach. I have found my approach works for me. That too is perfectly fine. [/quote]

For you. But you mentioned doing someone else's work?

[quote]Funny how you mentioned that your insults came to the fore while under the influence. As a Christian do you think that is wise? Not the insults the being under the influence? I'm not a teetotaller but getting drunk or stoned is not me or my way of doing evangelism.[/quote]

Of course not. But I have never identified as Christian. Always believer. And, no, that was the point. Being under the influence was only part of the problem. Maybe more a symptom than anything.

You don't stand face to face with someone and instruct or impress them with Christ by insulting them. That isn't what I was doing. I was lashing out. At what? Myself or unbelievers. Well, I have always and still do generally favor unbelievers over believers. It's the nonsense that they spout that pisses me off. But even then, I was still having problems with it because I was coming to realize that it wasn't anything other than my ego.

I'm not saying it's necessarily the same with you. I'm just responding to your saying you are doing someone else's work by being a jerk. And you are. I spotted that right off. I'm not judging. I'm a jerk too at times. You step outside of that when you are a jerk for God. Because you aren't. Most of the time. There are exceptions.

[quote] If the person is a serious seeker I am much different than I am when dealing with some loudmouthed atheist on a social site such as SW. If the atheist is being an idiot and inconsistent in his/her beliefs I call them out. If the person I am talking to is genuinely seeking then I gently show him/her the way. Your experience is different. Being completely honest I don't care if you decided to stop evangelizing. I am not your boss or your advisor. I am like the runner running my own race. You do you and I do me. I answer to Him who sent me not the atheist who thinks he/she knows it all.[/quote]

I hear you. And I know. I've been there. How much time do you spend, would you say, on calling out atheist idiots as opposed to dealing with serious seekers?
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@AkioTsukino About 50/50. So tell me what do you believe in? Everyone is a believer in something so what is your belief based on?
@hippyjoe1955 The Bible is what I base my belief on but it is not always reliable. The only thing I truly believe in is Jehovah God. I don't believe in myself. I don't believe in mankind. I don't believe in science. I don't believe in the Christians and I don't believe in the Jews. Or any other. Only Jehovah.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@AkioTsukino And yet you don't know the Bible. Hmmm.
@hippyjoe1955 [quote]And yet you don't know the Bible. Hmmm.[/quote]

You mean, I don't agree with your interpretation of the Bible. You see, I don't agree with your interpretation but that doesn't constitute ignorance on you part. It just means we don't agree.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@AkioTsukino You didn't know a fact from the Bible not an interpretation of it. The words of Jesus didn't ring a bell with you. I was not looking for an interpretation. I was looking for a response to the words.
This message was deleted by its author.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@AkioTsukino Google is your friend. Seek and you shall find. Jesus did speak of John the Baptist.