5 weeks ago Godspeed63 started another threat on this forum with the provocative name: [b]"Science Really Does Point To God"[/b]. Now the evidence of that claim is seriously under investigation. So far... to say it's "inconclusive" is a really friendly way of saying that there isn't much there.
Speedyman got the "Best Answer" which supposedly is this one:
[quote]Simply by accepting the scientific method you are accepting a rational universe therefore a rational mind behind it. Unless you are one of those irrational people who believes blind chance creates rationality[/quote]
It generated over 770 replies (so far). The side of people that are closely related to a religious mindset, spearheaded by: Godspeed63, Speedyman and Hippyjoe1955 contributed quite a lot.
Now some of the replies (on both sides) never really lead to much progress. It's more name calling from both sides and people feeling attacked in their believes. Which you can kinda expect from discussions like this. But I think if people go and read the entire thing, they will come fairly close to the summary I give in reply 770 on how religious people defend themselves. (read up here: https://similarworlds.com/19-Spirituality-Religion/2675808-Science-Really-Does-Point-To-God-No-Question-About?rid=31217251)
Annyway, this is post 770, or how you defend a dogmatic position against scientific data (or how you rationalise things that don't coop with your religious-dataset):
[b]1.[/b] The only source that matter, is the bible. If something goes against the bible. It has to be wrong.
[b]2.[/b] Say something, but don't state your source. If they don't accept your "truth" then they are asses for being sceptical. [i](The burden of proof is for those that don't agree with you. That's how the inquisition did it, and it worked for them. Why change a working system?)[/i]
[b]3.[/b] If you can't make your point in a rational way, and back it up with facts, apply terror. They either accept what you tell them, or let them know that they are going to burn in hell for not accepting your truth. [i](Tell them to "have a nice flame out", it's the Christian thing to do)[/i]
[b]4.[/b] Gods' natural force to create things, isn't magic. It's Godly.
[b]5.[/b] If the probability of something happening is really small. Then just regard it as being "irrational" to believe it might happen. The probability of it happening is just too small, so it just can't happen. Therefore God needed to have something to do with it. Because that's way more rational then believing in small probabilities.
[b]6.[/b] If people still don't believe you, then tell them they are ignorant and are unable to understand. Always seek the moral high-ground. Make your opponent look inferior... even if they quote the bible. People that look idiotic have no claim on the truth, only people that look virtuous and smart can claim to know things.
[b]7.[/b] If someone does make a point that is literally in the bible. Make sure to tell them that only "real" believers can interpretate the bible. Never EVER define "real", just make sure they know that you are one of the "real" ones. Because atheists are able to read scientific papers, but the bible just isn't for them.
[b]8.[/b] If someone uses science to debunk the bible, look for a few missteps in science. Then tell everyone that science is wrong because some scientists make mistakes. The Nirvana fallacy is your friend. Apply the same reasoning the agnostic atheists do. If they can use the nirvana fallacy to debunk the basic dataset of a religion, then why can't we? Never EVER agree that science and religion are not the same thing. Never EVER agree that science has a human characteristic. Extrapolate the "believe" in science to a "religious believe". Science is a religion and should be treated just like our religion is treated. Science is a cult! Wreck 'm!
[b]9.[/b] Only use scientific studies if they work in your favor. Be "sceptical" about all the others [i](apply rule 8 )[/i]. When they ask you if you are knowledgeble about the "toppic" or "field" you are quoting a studie off, always respond with: "yes" or "I have a really smart friend that explained it to me" [i](preferably a "scientific" friend, that doesn't belong to the science cult and says the same thing we do. Make sure to mention your friend is really smart. If your friend doesn't study the field (s)he criticises, make sure to mention that doesn't matter because (s)he is so smart. Anekdotal evidence works for us, because we know what is smart and others don't. - apply rule 6 )[/i].
[b]10.[/b] Never ever loose faith in what you believe, because else we'll burn in hell too. God doesn't apply terror, He loves us because we believe in Him and makes us burn if we are sceptical of Him. [i](that's just how love works... proof us wrong 🤷♂️)[/i]
[i](oh yeah, the text in the image... those are literal quotes from the threat. I'm not making this up.)[/i]
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If you have a sack with bingo balls ranging from 1 to 100. And you shuffle them around real well. Then start pulling them out 1 by 1 and put them in a row. You do that a billion times. Then some sequences will appear to be trully random and no order will be found. However, there will also be sequences that logicaly follow, like going from 1 to 100. Because order can come from chaos. Just as order can disolve in chaos.
The last time I checked, if we look how the universe was formed according to bigbang theory. Some really dense object exploded... created a form of chaos. But over time, because of gravity, this debris started ordening itself falling into it's "rational" place according to the laws of physics. Creating a universe that on first glance looks ordered... untill you move out of the ordered stuff and look at entire starsystems crashing into eachother.
So yeah, chaos can create order.
Rationality, according to the most simple explanation in the dictionairy: [i]"the quality of being based on clear thought and reason, or of making decisions based on clear thought and reason."[/i]. Human beings came from this chaos that is the universe, and they are able to have rational thoughts. So yeah... I do think rationality can clearly come from blind chance, in fact... I see no reason why it shouldn't.
@Kwek00 [quote]If you have a sack with bingo balls ranging from 1 to 100. And you shuffle them around real well. Then start pulling them out 1 by 1 and put them in a row. You do that a billion times. Then some sequences will appear to be trully random and no order will be found. However, there will also be sequences that logicaly follow, like going from 1 to 100. Because order can come from chaos. Just as order can disolve in chaos.[/quote]
That only applies when man in his finite understanding, tries to put God in a box of his own making and understanding. Doesn't work. Man will never be smarter nor wiser than God. When God directs something, nothing ever happens by "chance". Stating that order can come from chaos, is an oxymoron.
@LadyGrace 100%. Even a rational person should know a one in a quadrillion chance is the same as saying never. And there are millions upon millions of these "randon" chances. In other words it's just not possible
@Kwek00 save it my friend. Try it with a trillion balls. And life is much more complicated than that. And the forces inherent to all things is in place before any of this can even happen
@LadyGrace We aren't talking on what you should bet on. 🤷♂️
@Axeroberts says: [quote]Even a rational person should know a one in a quadrillion chance is the same as saying never.[/quote]
Which is "irrational" because 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 clearly isn't 0.
Then he goes on by saying:
[quote]And there are millions upon millions of these "randon" chances. [b]In other words it's just not possible[/b] [/quote]
It clearly is possible. The chance of that phenomena occuring is: 1/1,000,000,000,000,000
And from this unreasonable statement he goes on:
[quote]And life is much more complicated than that. And the forces inherent to all things is in place before any of this can even happen[/quote]
Which makes no sense... because even the first time that we try, the chance will still be: 1/1,000,000,000,000,000. We can have success the first time we try, we would just consider it "lucky", because we beat the odds. However, odds are still odds, and as long as there is a chance it can materialise itself.
Considering that all these statements now have a little heart and thumbs up and you called it "brilliant", the first pushback that I give where I put 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 and 0 next to eachother and point out that they are not equal. You change the conversation and start talking about what you would bet on. I guess it was a lot less brilliant and deserve the thumbs up if that is the reply.
@Axeroberts I guess you haven't figured out how gigantic universe is. Not to mention how old it is. Religious people, espescially in the judeo-christian religion, have this tendency to emphasise how flawed humanity is in comparisson to this all knowing, omnipresent God figure that they are worshipping. Humans are just too flawed too grasp how large and great God really is... we just can't understand. But when they are talking about odds that happen in something immense and old as "the universe", they suddenly have the pretentious tendency to do understand what it means to work with incredibly low odds. Because in their 70-80 year lifespan, living in a very limited corner of the universe, their brain is just equiped to work with incredible low numbers in an incredibly big universe... and they come to the great conclussion that if the number is too low... it just can't work. This mistake is made happily, because they wouldn't bet on it, because the odds of seeing it materialise in their lifetime is just not going to happen and therefore it can't happen at all. But people that point out this behavior are the irrational and stubborn ones.
are you for real? big numbers and low numbers? 1 followed by 41000 zeroes is a nice way of saying no chance. https://cyberpenance.wordpress.com/2018/08/20/the-odds-of-a-cell-forming-randomly-by-chance-alone/
@Axeroberts Sticking your head in the sand is kind of an ironic metaphor too use in a situation where you are the person laughing and ridiculising the idea that if the chance is too low for your human brain to comprehend, it's just easier to reduce the chance too 0% so you don't have to deal with the argument anymore.
@Axeroberts No... that's the part you got wrong. We can frame it another way you know... What if I put a gun against your head and tell you that you have a small chance to live. You can make a bet, you have 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 to survive OR we can not go through the trouble and you can take the 0% and just die. Considering that it would be rational to want to keep living in this particulair situation... what is your choice? Are you just going to let me kill you so we can have it over with, or do you take the odds and gamble. I can tell you according to the odds 1 out of 1,000,000,000,000,000 people walk away alive. But if you are stubborn and irrational, and stick your head into the sand because you can't deal with the argument, you'll be shot without a chance.
@Axeroberts If I have that right... then why even pretend to have an honest conversation here? If you are unwilling too accept that 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 clearly isn't 0. You are either: trolling, totally delusional, dishonest or r*tarded. Take your pick.
[quote]@LadyGrace 100%. Even a rational person should know a [b]one in a quadrillion chance is the same as saying never.[/b] [/quote]
For you 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 was already enough to reduce it too 0. So by extension, I would find it normal that even smaller numbers are still 0. I really wonder where 0 begins in your mind. It's apperently a huge range of really small numbers that are all equal to 0.
@Axeroberts It actually makes perfect sense, if you understand natural selection. Every birth is a roll of the dice. only the successful rolls get to roll again. Its the same principle that allows scientists to create mice for research or build vaccines for diseases in the lab, the difference being theyr direct their work, so it moves faster..That doesnt make them gods. Enough rolls of the dice gets you from nemitodes to Homo sapien.😷
