5 weeks ago Godspeed63 started another threat on this forum with the provocative name: [b]"Science Really Does Point To God"[/b]. Now the evidence of that claim is seriously under investigation. So far... to say it's "inconclusive" is a really friendly way of saying that there isn't much there.
Speedyman got the "Best Answer" which supposedly is this one:
[quote]Simply by accepting the scientific method you are accepting a rational universe therefore a rational mind behind it. Unless you are one of those irrational people who believes blind chance creates rationality[/quote]
It generated over 770 replies (so far). The side of people that are closely related to a religious mindset, spearheaded by: Godspeed63, Speedyman and Hippyjoe1955 contributed quite a lot.
Now some of the replies (on both sides) never really lead to much progress. It's more name calling from both sides and people feeling attacked in their believes. Which you can kinda expect from discussions like this. But I think if people go and read the entire thing, they will come fairly close to the summary I give in reply 770 on how religious people defend themselves. (read up here: https://similarworlds.com/19-Spirituality-Religion/2675808-Science-Really-Does-Point-To-God-No-Question-About?rid=31217251)
Annyway, this is post 770, or how you defend a dogmatic position against scientific data (or how you rationalise things that don't coop with your religious-dataset):
[b]1.[/b] The only source that matter, is the bible. If something goes against the bible. It has to be wrong.
[b]2.[/b] Say something, but don't state your source. If they don't accept your "truth" then they are asses for being sceptical. [i](The burden of proof is for those that don't agree with you. That's how the inquisition did it, and it worked for them. Why change a working system?)[/i]
[b]3.[/b] If you can't make your point in a rational way, and back it up with facts, apply terror. They either accept what you tell them, or let them know that they are going to burn in hell for not accepting your truth. [i](Tell them to "have a nice flame out", it's the Christian thing to do)[/i]
[b]4.[/b] Gods' natural force to create things, isn't magic. It's Godly.
[b]5.[/b] If the probability of something happening is really small. Then just regard it as being "irrational" to believe it might happen. The probability of it happening is just too small, so it just can't happen. Therefore God needed to have something to do with it. Because that's way more rational then believing in small probabilities.
[b]6.[/b] If people still don't believe you, then tell them they are ignorant and are unable to understand. Always seek the moral high-ground. Make your opponent look inferior... even if they quote the bible. People that look idiotic have no claim on the truth, only people that look virtuous and smart can claim to know things.
[b]7.[/b] If someone does make a point that is literally in the bible. Make sure to tell them that only "real" believers can interpretate the bible. Never EVER define "real", just make sure they know that you are one of the "real" ones. Because atheists are able to read scientific papers, but the bible just isn't for them.
[b]8.[/b] If someone uses science to debunk the bible, look for a few missteps in science. Then tell everyone that science is wrong because some scientists make mistakes. The Nirvana fallacy is your friend. Apply the same reasoning the agnostic atheists do. If they can use the nirvana fallacy to debunk the basic dataset of a religion, then why can't we? Never EVER agree that science and religion are not the same thing. Never EVER agree that science has a human characteristic. Extrapolate the "believe" in science to a "religious believe". Science is a religion and should be treated just like our religion is treated. Science is a cult! Wreck 'm!
[b]9.[/b] Only use scientific studies if they work in your favor. Be "sceptical" about all the others [i](apply rule 8 )[/i]. When they ask you if you are knowledgeble about the "toppic" or "field" you are quoting a studie off, always respond with: "yes" or "I have a really smart friend that explained it to me" [i](preferably a "scientific" friend, that doesn't belong to the science cult and says the same thing we do. Make sure to mention your friend is really smart. If your friend doesn't study the field (s)he criticises, make sure to mention that doesn't matter because (s)he is so smart. Anekdotal evidence works for us, because we know what is smart and others don't. - apply rule 6 )[/i].
[b]10.[/b] Never ever loose faith in what you believe, because else we'll burn in hell too. God doesn't apply terror, He loves us because we believe in Him and makes us burn if we are sceptical of Him. [i](that's just how love works... proof us wrong 🤷♂️)[/i]
[i](oh yeah, the text in the image... those are literal quotes from the threat. I'm not making this up.)[/i]
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@Kwek00 [quote]I Am An Agnostic Atheist 5 weeks ago Godspeed63 started another threat on this forum with the provocative name:"Science Really Does Point To God". Now the evidence of that claim is seriously under investigation. So far... to say it's "inconclusive" is a really friendly way of saying that there isn't much there. It generated over 770 replies (so far). The side of people that are closely related to a religious mindset, spearheaded by: Godspeed63, Speedyman and Hippyjoe1955 contributed quite a lot.[/quote]
"Threat" is hardly the case. It almost sounds like you're jealous of the man and the number of replies under his post. Nobody forces anybody to read his posts. Just like any other subject in this forum, if people don't like it, they don't have to read it and can simply move on and ignore it or block the person. That's simple enough, but to go on and on about someone's post, who has every right to post anything they wish on this site, sounds more like it's your problem, than anyone else's, since you are as you claim, an agnostic atheist. Don't forget that is what this forum is for, discussion. Why you go out of your way to dis Godspeed63 or anyone else for that matter, speaks volumes more about [b]your[/b] character, than his.
@LadyGrace I guess you couldn't read any further then the stuff in your quote. Kinda sad, else you would have actually known what my post was about. Also "Threat" needed to be "ThreaD". Most people figured that one out, but hey, it's my mistake so it's okay if you haven't.
Godspeed, HippyJoe, Speedyman and other such figures aren't here to have a discussion. They are here to preach, like they have always done. A discussion, at the bare minimum, requires all sides to look at the evidence and be open to change their mind about things. None of these people can do that, so don't call it a discussion. Dressing up a turd, doesn't make it less of a turd.
I also have the right to go on someones post... if you don't like it, don't read it. Take your own advice on this one. And if someone posts something publicly, they are open to public criticism. If you don't like that, then again... go somewhere else.
I don't even go out of my way, I did the same thing everyone else does... either reply to a message or start one myself. It's always funny to hear people use the idea that people that react to something on a public forum are going "out of their way", "are triggered", "are angry" or being "obssessed". What ever word you can use to put the person with the opinion you don't like away in some weird bracket, so you can feel more flattered about your own little tribe. And while doing so... you are also dodging the rest of the conversation, which makes life a lot easier for the tribe, espescially when they have opinions that aren't maintable in the real world.
My character? You are here complaining on a post from 4 years ago... and you never said anything about the actual thing that I'm adressing. The only thing we get, are personal attacks on how you believe "I feel" about stuff. How I'm "jealous" and going out of my way" to point out what absolute bullshit someone posts every day on this website. I critisize their unwillingness to have an honest discussion. But you deny all that in favor of your christian clique, that you are protecting without ever rebutting any of the things I said about how these people function. I wonder what that says about your character?
@Kwek00 Well that shows what you know. So what, if I'm just now seeing the post? People do this all time, even on my posts. I didn't see the date, so shoot me! lol. No big deal, but it's very clear that you are obviously ignorant of what this forum is for and regardless of your close-minded accusations, Godspeed63 can post anything he wants, just like anyone else. It just happens to end up in arguments, which shouldn't be, granted, but that's what you get when people don't know how to act like an adult and state their case or position in an adult like manner without the necessity of cursing or belittling people , so they end up personally attacking this person. Which brings me to all your snide little remarks about Christians. You're no better than those you falsely accuse. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but not in a hateful manner. Something you've clearly not learned nor practiced. Dressing up a turd, doesn't make it less of a turd. Sound familiar? Take your own advice. It works both ways. And guess what. All I ever see from agnostics or atheists is their agenda to [b]start[/b] a feud with Christians and show hate towards them. On my posts, I'm always more than willing to hear the other side and so is Godspeed, because that's what we do in this forum, is discuss back and forth, but when you're going to take the attitude you are taking, and right away come out wanting to fight and curse, that's not what this forum is for. These are the type people that start the arguments under Godspeed's posts, not the other way around. I don't care who answers my posts, as long as they show the same respect I show them, like we [b]all[/b] deserve, but don't come out here acting all high and mighty when you yourself are the one that went out of your way clearly to dis Godspeed63 and others, just because you clearly don't like them. Get off your high horse. If you don't like what Christians post then move on or block them.
@LadyGrace [quote]No big deal, but it's very clear that you are obviously ignorant of what this forum is for and regardless of your close-minded accusations, Godspeed63 can post anything he wants, just like anyone else.[/quote]
How are they close-minded? Please explain yourself. I'm also glad that I can post what ever I want... that's so nice of you. Because in your earlier reply it felt that I should just leave everything alone when I'm going to post something you are going to disagree with. A couple of minutes ago... I just had not to read what I didn't like or just move along.
[quote]Which brings me to all your snide little remarks about Christians. You're no better than those you falsely accuse.[/quote]
"Falsely accuse"? You can read your own posts can you? And if we want, we can go over some Godspeed posts too and you can tell me how false my accusations are.
[quote]Constructive criticism is always welcome, but not in a hateful manner. Something you've clearly not learned nor practiced. Dressing up a turd, doesn't make it less of a turd. Sound familiar?[/quote]
It also happens to be true LadyGrace... maybe you should try it sometime. You take a big piece of shit, and dress up and see if you want to keep it in your living room. Godspeed has the same issues, the problem is just that Godspeed is a christian, so we can't really express what a piece of shit he really is, because christians won't have it. 🤣
[quote]All I ever see from agnostics or atheists is their agenda to start a feud with Christians and show hate towards them.[/quote]
Yeah, cause when you are a devoted christian ... "disagreeing" means "hate". That's just how it works when you have a victim complex and are unable to adress the criticism. You take the easy road and just pretend to be the victim of hate. But hey, you know what... when it comes to Godspeed, HippyJoe and Speedyman, you are right. There is actual hate there... because I tried the friendly way and came to the conclussion that these people are either trolling, totally delusional, dishonest or r*tarded. Take your pick.
[quote]In my posts, I'm always more than willing to hear the other side and so is Godspeed, because that's what we do in this forum, is discuss back and forth, but when you're going to take the attitude you are taking, and right away come out wanting to fight and curse, that's not what this forum is for.[/quote]
I don't know about you, but when you talk about Godspeed... that's just not true. And the fact that you can't figure that out, doesn't give me much hope for your case either. Also... you are not the arbiter on how this forum is supposed to be used. You can't play the victim and also the dictator at the same time.
[quote]Get off your high horse. If you don't like what Christians post then move on or block them.[/quote]
No... when I see something that I don't like and I feel like telling those people what I think. Then I'll do that LadyGrace. It's kinda weird because at the beginning of this it sounded like this:
[quote][...] Godspeed63 can post anything he wants,[b] just like anyone else.[/b][/quote]
But I guess when it comes to christians, I need to move on or block them. Christians, ... for some weird reason, can't be criticized. Apperently everyone needs to leave them alone. Well... I can tell you that I'm going to post anything I want... just like everyone else. And if Christians don't like it... they can block me or move the other way. But they don't have too okay... just like everyone else.
@Kwek00 The thing is, I agree with what you said about arguing. That should never be. Yes Christians can take criticism, but it should never come to the point where it becomes name calling and cursing each other. It's not only Christian posts. What I'm saying refers to every post here and abiding by the rules here. Not just my posts or Godspeed's posts. We're all here for discussion. It doesn't have to escalate to arguments. Differences of opinion are always welcome but not when they become nasty. And you know that's what I'm talking about. The rules say it all here, that the staff created for us. Just to be respectful of each other in our answers. But then you always have those who go beyond. Personally, that's when I end the conversation on my posts and if they don't accept that I asked them a couple times to treat me the way that they would like to be treated, and insist on continuing to name call and attack my person, that's when I block them. I think that's fair.
@LadyGrace What part of "argueing" do you agree with specificaly?
[quote]It doesn't have to escalate to arguments.[/quote]
Why not? ... I mean lets just go through some Godspeed posts:
[b]2 days ago:[/b] [b]Title: [/b][i]The Lie: Radioactive Dating Is Trustworthy - The Turth: Radioactive Dating Is not Trustworthy[/i] [i]"Evolution scientists are bent on proving the age of the earth to fit their agenda by using a flawed experiment known as radioactive dating. The truth is that they can't alter the age of the earth. God created it over 6000 years ago as His Word gives testimony to."[/i]
... I guess we just need to let this excist on the internet without corecting the mistakes. This guy says that someone is lieing.. and the people that he adresses to be liers, people that follow evolutionairy science, they just need to let it go and not adress that he's wrong. You know what that is right? Proclaiming something to the world without wanting people to adress your ideas in critical fashion? That's not a discussion, that's preaching. That's what cults do.
[b]1 week ago:[/b] [b]Title:[/b] [i]The Lie: Science And God Don't Mix - The Truth: God Created Science For Our Benefit[/i] [i]"Science will always point to God, that's the established Truth."[/i]
... same criticism as the post from 2 days ago.
[b]2 weeks ago:[/b] [b]Title: [/b][i]The Lie: Jesus Was Only A Man - The Truth: Jesus Is The Son Of God[/i] [i]"Science will always point to God, that's the established Truth."[/i]
I guess the "liars" shouldn't defend themselves here either.
[b]2 weeks ago:[/b] [b]Title:[/b] [i]The Lie: God Is A Delusion - The Truth: God Is Not A Delusion[/i] [i]"It's already been established by God that He is no delusion. Man can't change it."[/i]
[b]2 weeks ago:[/b] [b]Title:[/b] [i]The Lie: All This Came About Accidental - The Truth: In The Beginning God Created The Heavens & The Earth[/i] [i]"None of this happened by accident. It has already been established that God created everything and man can't change it."[/i]
[b]3 weeks ago:[/b] [b]Title:[/b] [i]The Lie: God Is Not Real - The Truth: God Has Already Proven To Mankind That He Is Real[/i] [i]"You can't tell me that God doesn't live since He, Himself established that He does live. The evidence in the videos shows that to be the truth. Nothing else can create such beauty, precision timing, prefect order, and life. What more can I say?"[/i]
LOL... that last one btw. When the thing you are trying to proof too be real, proves itself to be real while also being immaterial. I mean, how dumb can it get?
But yeah... he's saying that people that say the things that he disagrees with are liars... but in none of the stories he posted, he provides evidence why they are lieing. We just need to accept the preachings of a delusional turd. And if we don't want too, we need to block him and move the other way. Because criticism is "hate" here, even though he calls people that say the things he doesn't like "liars". That's the extend of his formulation. And those are just the first 5 stories on his personal page. We can go into everyone of them if you want, but I'll tell you before we start... that's it's not worth anyones time. Because these are all baseless claims. And what is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
@Kwek00 [quote]What part of "argueing" do you agree with specificaly?[/quote]
Discussion is good and healthy in general, is what I'm saying. Whether one agrees with the poster or not. They should be welcome to disagree and have different opinions. This is the way we learn from each other and grow as a person. One person is not always right. Differences are most welcome. It's when a person crosses that line, either the poster or person replying, is when things go wrong. In that case, neither are respecting the other's boundaries.
@LadyGrace Only when it's a discussion. Godspeed posts never are. And devoted christians NEVER learn, that segment of the christian population is unable to learn anything hat might threaten the orthodoxy. That's why you run into the same arguments every day, even though you can point out that the argument doesn't work, that type of christian will just keep using it. Their brain just doesn't compute because they are defending the undefendable.
@Kwek00 Well I think it's not fair to put all Christians in the same basket, so to speak, when you say ALL Christians NEVER learn. That could be said of any person but it may not be true and we shouldn't assume that because we would be judging them. And nothing is threatening, unless a person doesn't know him or her "self".
[quote]That's why you run into the same arguments every day, even though you can point out that the argument doesn't work[/quote]
The argument may not work, but that's only because everyone has a different idea/opinion, and there's nothing wrong with that. People don't always have to match in their ideas. They can agree to disagree, respectfully.
[quote]Their brain just doesn't compute because they are defending the undefendable.[/quote]
That's another assumption that isn't true. God doesn't need defending. He has already proven himself quite adequately. The problem lies in unbelief, alone. Nothing wrong in that, in itself. We all have different beliefs. It would be an awfully boring world if we didn't. Discussions are great. Arguing, I'm strictly against...period.
@LadyGrace I'm not... I literally said the "devoted" once. That segment of the christian population that is so far gone, that they are just unreasonable to anyone that did their homework. Well, you are right about the "never" part. From time to time someone has a moment where they come to the realisation that they were wrong. And then the community needs to push that person as far as way as possible, before they infect the rest of the flock. You can't have dissidence in those circles, because reality is really threatening once you are hooked on fantasy.
[quote]The argument may not work, but that's only because everyone has a different idea/opinion, and there's nothing wrong with that.[/quote]
No... not really no. Some opinions are just superior to other opinions. I'm talking about opinions that actually have a large body of proof behind them versus opinions that well... are lacking evidence entirely. And pointing at the bible, is not the same as providing evidence.
I don't believe that to "agree to disagree" is a smart option in a lot of the cases that Godspeed touches upon. In fact, it's actually lazy and stupid to agree to disagree with people that just preach instead of proof their points. In the long run, it's just destructive, because a lot of other people might fall for the preachings of a nutcase.
It's not an assumption... the christian arguments that run in American evangelic circles have been tackled over and over again. And after the discussions, there isn't a whole lot that is left standing. Because that type of christian, just keeps defending the undefendable. And they have this urge to go beyond the idea that they just believe what they want to believe. No they need to play with the big boys, the people that proof their point... and well, it's been a long road of failures. This isn't an assumption, this isn't an opinion, this is just fact. Just go over all the apologetics and then go over the people that tackle the arguments and see the result.
"Believing" things that can be proven to be wrong, is a waste of time. It's way better to deal with what is real, then to spend energy and build political frameworks around make believe.
@Kwek00 [quote]reality is really threatening once you are hooked on fantasy.[/quote]
But nothing says a person's reality is fantasy, except the unbeliever. Maybe that person just doesn't understand a certain subject, but that doesn't necessarily make, or mean, it's a fantasy.
[quote]Some opinions are just superior to other opinions.[/quote]
No. Opinions are like people. None superior to the other. They're just opinions.
[quote]I'm talking about opinions that actually have a large body of proof behind them versus opinions that well... are lacking evidence entirely. And pointing at the bible, is not the same as providing evidence.[/quote]
The truth of the matter, is that an opinion may actually have proof behind it and not lack evidence. It just depends upon perception. Some people can't find God for the same reason a thief can't find a cop.
[quote]I don't believe that to "agree to disagree" is a smart option in a lot of the cases that Godspeed touches upon. In fact, it's actually lazy and stupid to agree to disagree with people that just preach instead of proof their points. In the long run, it's just destructive, because a lot of other people might fall for the preachings of a nutcase.[/quote]
I wouldn't call people a nutcase, just because you disagree with them or think they're wrong. They could be right, and yourself wrong. You don't know that for sure, though you think you do.
It's not lazy and stupid to agree to disagree. What that actually means is that since you both disagree, nothing is to be gained from arguing about it, so it's best to just agree to disagree, instead of continuing to argue. You yourself said arguing is a lesson in futility, and I couldn't agree more. Points can be proven, yet not everyone will accept a certain proof, though it may actually be truth. There's really not a necessity to go on and on about proving things and that's why we conclude with agreeing to disagree. It's just not profitable or wise to pursue it. It makes no difference if people doesn't agree with us. Not everyone has to agree with us, meaning you or I.
@Kwek00 [quote]"Believing" things that can be proven to be wrong, is a waste of time. It's way better to deal with what is real, then to spend energy and build political frameworks around make believe.[/quote]
Well that's just it, isn't it? Nothing says it can't be proven either way, or else the other person just isn't willing to accept what is said, and that's okay, too. One has yet, to prove that the Bible or God, is wrong ... or a myth. What may be make believe for you, may very well be a reality to another person, and could very well be the truth. Exploring is never a waste of time and neither is learning. God, to me, is definitely real. He saved my daughter from certain death, when all the doctors gave up on her and said she would be dead in a week. Now you may not accept that as proof that God is real and works miracles and that's okay but just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean it's not real.
@LadyGrace [quote]But nothing says a person's reality is fantasy, except the unbeliever. Maybe that person just doesn't understand a certain subject, but that doesn't necessarily make, or mean, it's a fantasy.[/quote]
The moment you make claims about our material world... we can start measuring and figuring out if you are right. If you are wrong, and you believe in it anyway, well... that's a fantasy. And pretending that person that proves you wrong just doesn't understand you... well, it's your taks to make them understand. HOWEVER, if they do understand you and still proof you wrong, it should be up to you to understand that what you are defending is undefendable. Godspeed makes claims about the real world ALL the time, he gets debunked all the time... but Godspeed doesn't compute.
[quote]No. Opinions are like people. None superior to the other. They're just opinions.[/quote]
If my opinion is founded on a number of facts, and logically follows from those facts. It's way more superior then someone just going: "I believe in X, because I do". That last person has nothing going for his opinion while mine does. How can these things be equal?
But that's what happens if you believe in stuff that can't be defended, you have to make opinions equal so that you at least can claim a place at the table. But it's so undeserving that I think we better leave that chair vacant untill someone comes along that has some subtance to bring to the conversation.
[quote]The truth of the matter, is that an opinion may actually have proof behind it and not lack evidence. It just depends upon perception. Some people can't find God for the same reason a thief can't find a cop.[/quote]
At least if we can establish something was stolen, we at leats have material evidence that there was theft and that there was a thief. That evidence is lacking in the God discussion. That's why people can't find God, while a thief can actually whipe out their track. This is a false equivalent.
And yes, something totally bizar can eventually be proven wrong. However, that doesn't make the person that made the bizar claim without evidence any more credible. Even a broke clock is right twice a day, but I wouldn't ever use it to tell me how late it is.
[quote]I wouldn't call people a nutcase, just because you disagree with them or think they're wrong. They could be right, and yourself wrong. You don't know that for sure, though you think you do.[/quote]
I think I do, because I base myself on evidence. Because again... not all opinions are equal.
[quote]You yourself said arguing is a lesson in futility, and I couldn't agree more.[/quote]
If I said this... there has to be a specific context. If I said in relationship too Godspeed, HippyJoe, Speedyman, Sunsporter, Budwick, HoraceGreenley, ... and the rest of the delusional crowd on the internet. Then yes, it's really futile. And why is it futile? Because they aren't discussing anything, they are preaching. They are not here to think about their ideas, they just want to preach them and want other people to acknowledge them so they can feel good about themselves. That's it. Those people, are a waste of time on this medium. The only way to get to those types is to get them in a room 1 on 1 and make sure they can't run away.
[quote]Points can be proven, yet not everyone will accept a certain proof, though it may actually be truth.[/quote]
... But It's not lazy and stupid? Even though something can be proven, but you won't accept it. How is that a smart stance to take? And how is it not lazy to shelter yourself from rethinking your believes? Running away from reality, so you have to do no work at all in sharpening your ideas.
But hey, after a while you have a bunch of people that ... because we all agreed to disagree, internalised the most dumb ideas. And then those people, because they are a large segment of society, form a political party. Before you know it, they are argueing to ban datasets (like books and movies) in schools because that data doesn't stroke with the believe system and thus have to be lies. Then people are pressed to live a certain way, because this segment has all the answers. Eventually you'll end up in some authoritarian system where everyone is forced to respect the orthodoxy because we were all too lazy and we didn't want to have any conflict in our lifes. Now we are stuck with a segment of the population that is forcing their delusional believe system on to others because we all choose to agree to disagree untill it bites us in the ass.
@LadyGrace [quote]One has yet, to prove that the Bible or God, is wrong ... or a myth.[/quote]
Like Barth Ehrman? or Richard Carrier? Francesca Stavrakopoulou?
... the bible is one of the most researched books, but I guess christians missed the research. Maybe it's because historical research isn't compatible with theology. Historical research deals with the real world... while theology is a fancy word for a book club that specialises in one particulair book that is believed to be "sacred".
@Kwek00 [quote]The moment you make claims about our material world... we can start measuring and figuring out if you are right. If you are wrong, and you believe in it anyway, well... that's a fantasy.[/quote]
Material world, yes....key word being MATERIAL. You cannot apply that to the spiritual realm, where anything is possible with God. That's why it takes faith, not sight. And Jesus already proved himself, when he came to the earth in person and people saw him work miracles, yet still were too stubborn to believe. He already proved himself and his great love for us when he died for our sins on the cross and he doesn't need to do that again just to prove it to unbelievers. Once was quite enough with all the suffering he did. No one will have the excuse that they didn't know how to receive Christ and salvation. That's what He said in His Word.
@Kwek00 [quote]Like Barth Ehrman? or Richard Carrier? Francesca Stavrakopoulou?[/quote]
Um-hmm. All [u]unbelievers[/u]. I don't take the word of mere flawed man, over a perfect, flawless, sinless God. And wrong. That's the problem. Unbelievers don't read the Bible and don't try to find God or understand him, then accuse us of not doing our research. Whether you believe it or not, one day you will come face to face with him and that alone I would think, would urge you to find out more about him instead of leaving your soul to chance. You can't disprove God, so don't even try. And any real proof that any Christian could give you that God is real and alive, like in my example of God saving my daughter, it is clear that you would dismiss or find fault with it, anyway. With people who just don't want to believe, no proof would be good enough for them.
@LadyGrace God in the bible is only perceived as "perfect" by sycophant followers LadyGrace. He even shows regret for his actions... which is a strange thing to do if you are perfect.
I think the bible is read by a lot of diffrent people. But because they are unbelievers, they are automatically disqualified for having valid criticism. Which is a smart thing to do, if you want to protect fantasy narratives. It's better to listen to the people that share the same fantasies, because they will never challenge you. Cults put that idea in practise all the time. It's also lazy, because you kinda save yourself from doing any work to read what critics have said, why they said it, where they base themselves on... and you never have to figure out if they have a point or not. 🤷♂️
Reading the bible... in 95% of all the things we talk about, is not the same as doing research. Reading the bible is only good if you want to understand what is in there. It tells you nothing about it's validity.
I'm not leaving my soul to chance... the argument from christianity just isn't convincing at all.
How did God save your daughter? Chances that I dismiss that story without evidence are really high... because what is stated without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
And pretending that no proof is good enough, is a weird thing to say to someone that points towards scientific studies and scholarly work. I clearly can be convinced of things, if there is at least evidence for it. Religious types have this idea that because someone keeps denieing their fantastical narratives, that these people are just unconvincible. But in the same time, all these people are convinced about loads of stuff exactly because it can be proven. Maybe the issue is that the religious person is just unable to understand that they might be wrong, exactly because they are believers and not swayed by evidence or arguments that are logically constructed.
@Kwek00 Best of luck with your theories. Since you can't refrain from calling me names, this conversation is ended and don't use the lame excuse that I don't have answers for you and that's why I left, like most would do. I simply don't acknowledge nor answer people who are rude.
@LadyGrace the term sycophant is applicable here. But instead of saying: "I'm not because A, B, C" it's: "I'm so offended" and then you can hapily run away from an applicable label that you don't like. You just keep feeling offended out there okay!
@Kwek00 [quote]How did God save your daughter? Chances that I dismiss that story without evidence are really high... because what is stated without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.[/quote]
My daughter's being literally brought back to life in an [b]instant[/b], is plenty of proof of who God is and what He can do. No one else could do that except God. We also have the medical records to prove her condition and everything. If her coming back to life, alone, in an instant because of our prayers, is not "suitable" to to you, nothing would be. That only proves you're not really looking for God. Nothing would suffice for you. Go look in the mirror. Don't you even recognize who made you? You really want to believe something as fictitious as matter coming together and all the sudden creating this beautiful creation and human beings? And you call [i]my[/i] beliefs fictional. You're alive for one reason, and that's because God made you and you have a living soul that one day will cross over into eternity and you don't even know where it's going or care. That's careless. Leaving your soul to chance is what that is and nothing less.
@Kwek00 Gee, I wonder why I would feel offended when you do nothing but call my God and my beliefs "fanciful", "bullshit", and every other name, and call [i]me[/i] names. Your attempts at defense and explanations, mean nothing.
@LadyGrace They mean nothing, because you need to keep protecting all the believe you have. What ever you do, don't challenge yourself okay. Just be lazy, ignorance is bliss they tell me.
@LadyGrace In instant even... without any outside force. And because you can't explain it... like always with people that fall in this trap => thus God.
Can't explain something => God is here to help you out to make sense of the complexity. No more work is needed.
[quote]If her coming back to life, alone, in an instant because of our prayers, is not "suitable" to to you, nothing would be.[/quote]
Sounds like a really strong story. Man, something that is this "miraculous" should have been picked up by someone. Even the medical field could study and figure things out. But I guess... all of that didn't happen.
[quote] Don't you even recognize who made you?[/quote]
You mean mom and dad having intercourse? And the spermcell penetrating the egg and all that?
[quote]You really want to believe something as fictitious as matter coming together and all the sudden creating this beautiful creation and human beings?[/quote]
Reality really doesn't care about what I want to believe. It just is. What people want to believe that's the fantasy part that I'm agitating against. It's the thing people apperently need to feel comfy... but I rather just know the truth.
[quote]You're a lie for one reason and that's because God made you and you have a living soul that one day will cross over into eternity and you don't even know where it's going or care[/quote]
Just proof it... Just make an actual case. People do it all the time. let other people study your argument, and if it's deemed valid, I'll be happy to adopt it. Untill that day comes... I rather don't attach myself to a believe system that doesn't have a lot going for it in the evidence department.
@Kwek00 [quote]They mean nothing, because you need to keep protecting all the believe you have. What ever you do, don't challenge yourself okay. Just be lazy, ignorance is bliss they tell me.[/quote]
It seems to em that you're the one who's ignorant here, Kwek. We can't add to what God has already done. He's proven Himself to mankind over and over and over and over through His Word and His work. You nonacceptance does not make that void. You can't change what God has already established as Truth before the foundations of the earth.
