I Am Southern and Proud of It
Saw a confederate flag bumper sticker today that I liked. It said shut up and kiss my rebel ass
22-25, F
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QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
SW-User
@QuixoticSoul Sounds about right.
Mountainlady16 · 22-25, F
@SW-User to an army whose leaders today would have been charged with war crimes
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@SW-User Honestly, I love the South, and visit parts of it regularly. But I'll never understand the obsession about the fact that they tried to destroy this nation over the right to own people and failed. That's seriously not something that makes sense to be proud of, like a high school goth phase or something. Sure, bring it up at parties for laughs... but don't let it define you.
Mountainlady16 · 22-25, F
@QuixoticSoul it wasn't about slavery dipshiy
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@Mountainlady16 Eh, rules and customs of war change. Firebombing Japan wouldn't be acceptable in today's world either. And in general, only losers get tried for war crimes.
Mountainlady16 · 22-25, F
@QuixoticSoul true and every west point graduate that fought for the confederacy could have been shot for treason. But the only man charged with war crimes was the officer in charge of andersinville. Though the Yankees had their own camp as bad if not worse
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@Mountainlady16
[quote]Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.[/quote]
- Alexander H. Stephens, the vice president of the Confederacy
But sure, not about slavery.
[quote]Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.[/quote]
- Alexander H. Stephens, the vice president of the Confederacy
But sure, not about slavery.
Mountainlady16 · 22-25, F
@QuixoticSoul and Lincoln original goal was not to end slavery. In fact he chose a running mate that owned slaves. Name one state where blacks were equal to whites in 1860?
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@Mountainlady16 It is utterly irrelevant what Lincoln's original goal was. It doesn't change that the South tried to destroy the Union over the right to own slaves. Lincoln's personal opinions are completely orthogonal to the whole discussion. In fact, in his own words...
[quote]If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.[/quote]
The North fought the war not to free the slaves, but to preserve the Union. The South seceded over slavery, however.
[quote]If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.[/quote]
The North fought the war not to free the slaves, but to preserve the Union. The South seceded over slavery, however.
Mountainlady16 · 22-25, F
@QuixoticSoul the north didn't want to end slavery either cause their economy depended also on cheap raw materials. The war was over states rights because as it still does today the federal government tries to interfere where it doesn't belong.
@Mountainlady16
Well argued. Well defended.
Spot on
The issue of the civil war was federalism .. state rights ... as you identified.
Well done
Well argued. Well defended.
Spot on
The issue of the civil war was federalism .. state rights ... as you identified.
Well done
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
If the North didn't want to end slavery, the South wouldn't have seceded. This was their principal grievance, and it's the one that dominated their conventions.
[quote]The war was over states rights[/quote]
It was over one right. Note that the Confederate constitution doesn't really grant the states more independence or rights. In fact, it takes one away - the right to abolish slavery.
[quote]The war was over states rights[/quote]
It was over one right. Note that the Confederate constitution doesn't really grant the states more independence or rights. In fact, it takes one away - the right to abolish slavery.
Mountainlady16 · 22-25, F
@QuixoticSoul the federal government taxed the south like crazy. Northern states had and still has larger populations than the south. Now we're on the verge of another civil war alot of it is over states rights. But now those rights are if a state had the right to ban baby killing, keep freaks out of women's restroom and religious freedom.
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@Mountainlady16
[quote]the federal government taxed the south like crazy.[/quote]
No, they really didn't. Which taxes are you talking about?
Now there is the whole "The war is really over tariffs" myth, which was started, ironically, to sell support for Confederacy to the British public, who had a distaste for slavery at the time (it didn't work btw, because it was obviously bunk - but caught on in US after slavery became, you know, embarrassing). It's a reference to Morrill Tariff which was passed in 1861. But it was only passed because the Southern states started seceding - normally they would have had the voting power to block it, like they blocked other attempts.
And it wasn't a tariff [b]on[/b] the South. It was an import tariff, taxing foreign goods to make Northern industries more competitive. The South kept the tariffs low for decades and this was a source of some resentment in the North. But without the crisis over slavery, import tariffs would have stayed low.
This is btw, why most Southern secession leaders cite slavery as the cause, not tariffs, and why discussions on slavery absolutely dominated Souther secession conventions. I'm not sure why you're trying to invent things, when the people at the time didn't mince words about why they were leaving.
[quote]Now we're on the verge of another civil war alot of it is over states rights. [/quote]
Of course we aren't. There is zero indications of any of that at all. As things stand, the probability of civil war is pretty much zero. And certainly nobody is going to fight it over abortion and trans rights.
Anyway, the whole thing was never over states rights, at least any other rights than being able to own people - otherwise maybe the Confederacy would have built a bit more of them into their constitution.
I mean - here is an excerpt from South Carolina's secession notice. They were the first state to leave, and the war started there.
[quote]...A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that “Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction. This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.[/quote]
Or Mississippi's
[quote]Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin…[/quote]
Etc, etc.
They weren't hiding anything.
[quote]the federal government taxed the south like crazy.[/quote]
No, they really didn't. Which taxes are you talking about?
Now there is the whole "The war is really over tariffs" myth, which was started, ironically, to sell support for Confederacy to the British public, who had a distaste for slavery at the time (it didn't work btw, because it was obviously bunk - but caught on in US after slavery became, you know, embarrassing). It's a reference to Morrill Tariff which was passed in 1861. But it was only passed because the Southern states started seceding - normally they would have had the voting power to block it, like they blocked other attempts.
And it wasn't a tariff [b]on[/b] the South. It was an import tariff, taxing foreign goods to make Northern industries more competitive. The South kept the tariffs low for decades and this was a source of some resentment in the North. But without the crisis over slavery, import tariffs would have stayed low.
This is btw, why most Southern secession leaders cite slavery as the cause, not tariffs, and why discussions on slavery absolutely dominated Souther secession conventions. I'm not sure why you're trying to invent things, when the people at the time didn't mince words about why they were leaving.
[quote]Now we're on the verge of another civil war alot of it is over states rights. [/quote]
Of course we aren't. There is zero indications of any of that at all. As things stand, the probability of civil war is pretty much zero. And certainly nobody is going to fight it over abortion and trans rights.
Anyway, the whole thing was never over states rights, at least any other rights than being able to own people - otherwise maybe the Confederacy would have built a bit more of them into their constitution.
I mean - here is an excerpt from South Carolina's secession notice. They were the first state to leave, and the war started there.
[quote]...A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that “Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction. This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.[/quote]
Or Mississippi's
[quote]Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin…[/quote]
Etc, etc.
They weren't hiding anything.