I Had Or Have To Wear A School Uniform

@Scroll It doesn't work because children whose parents can't afford the overpriced uniform from the school approved suppliers are bullied by teachers by being isolated or excluded.

In the UK, if you cannot afford the uniform you can discuss the problem with the head teacher.

Poor kids are going to get bullied in school by kids for having cheap clothing etc.

In the long run, uniform is better after it's brought.

I think some local councils help out with the costs too.

@Scroll No local council I know of in England helps with the cost of school uniform. I believe the situation might be different in Scotland. The last time I heard of anyone getting a grant was about 12 year ago and just about covered the cost of one sweater from the approved supplier.

Poor kids are being bullied now by the teachers, how is that better than the, unlikely, possibility they'll be bullied by a few rich kids? What makes you think the majority of students will have parents rich enough to kit them out with designer gear for school? In my experience the opposite is more likely.

There is usually no point trying to discuss anything with the "Kommandant" - rules are rules and you shall obey. Schools just do what they want and to Hell with parents.

@Scroll [quote]In the UK, if you cannot afford the uniform you can discuss the problem with the head teacher.[/quote]

You must be joking. Headteachers couldn't care less about the problems they cause impoverished families. All they care about is imposing their stupid, petty rules. They're control freaks who gain satisfaction by micro-managing students' lives and even attempting to control their students' parents. They could never get away with their bullying in any other job and they know it.

@Scroll I'm with Alfred on this one. I've got an 11 year old and 13 year old in the same school. They tell me they feel OK with uniform as its one less thing to worry about peer pressure.

I think uniform free schools can work, however, there seems to be more and more brand and designer loyalty in the UK than other countries. For this reason I'm happy with uniforms.

The 2 school uniforms didn't break the bank and there are other ways children can express themselves rather than just by the way they dress.

The kids look smart at school and mine are free to be creative and have choice in what they wear out of school.

@Ironicman You're lucky. A lot of schools, if not most, rip-off parents over uniform costs. In most schoool, only a few children have parents sufficient affluent to be able to afford to dress them in designer gear for school. The vast majority are relatively poor. Are you seriously suggesting a few rich kids are able to bully the much greater number of average ones?

It's far more likely the rich ones will want to dress down to match the majority, for fear of being outcasts for flaunting their wealth.

@Ironicman You say your children don't have to worry about peer pressure. You ignore the fact they have to worry about being pressured to conform by the teachers.

If you think uniform is so great, presumably you would agree to being forced to buy an expensive uniform to use other services such as the local library; the NHS health centre. Maybe even the fire service ("Sorry Sir, we can't rescue you as you're not wearing the proper uniform") or the police.

Why should schools, run by jumped up petty dictators, be any different?

@suzie1960 some valid points Suzie, but I don't see it. When mine changed schools I was worried to learn the uniform supplier was John Lewis. The blazer turned out to be £35 and it lasted the year (bought big). In fact it was igood enough to hand down to his bro but was too big for our lil man.

TBH I would never be able to get my lads into Blazers if they had choice and it does help prep them for careers where a dress code is required, should they choose whatever career.

As a school kid myself I too felt better about uniforms. Didn't have to worry about being cool and could save those woes for school discos and hangouts in the parks or shopping centres at the weekend.

@Ironicman How much did John Lewis have to pay the school to be appointed the "Official Supplier"? Depending on the size of the school, the figure can run into tens of thousands which has to be recouped through grossly inflated prices for uniform items.

Children from poorer families are bullied by the school by being isolated and denied breaks because their parents can't afford the overpriced uniform. Some familes literally have to go hungry to save up enough to pay for what is supposed to be a free service. Just try to put yourself in their position. Do you buy some food, some coal for the fire or add to the school uniform pot in the hope that, soon, your child with be allowed to attend normal lessons?

You might be able to afford £20 each for school shirts, not everyone can.

@suzie1960 Hi again, TBH we as a family do live hand to mouth. The school is a comprehensive and sits next to one of the highest areas of deprivation in the south east. So everything we do, including buying school uniforms, has to be carefully budgeted for from the salaries we earn. So yes there have been cut backs since we decided to have kids.

I think the whole issue of affordable living generally is a huge issue and I think the nation is on a cliff edge in terms of living wages and housing costs so I agree with you that uniforms can be tough from that perspective.

I've been there in terms of the bullying because I was sent to school in jumpers my mum knitted for me whereas the class mates who's parents could afford them sent theirs in designer sweaters that the school foolishly aloud. All I can say is my knitted jumpers were bloody warm, lasted al lot longer than my mates but gave me the worst two years of my life. Lol

@Ironicman Some people aren't even as well off as you are yet they still have to somehow find the money to pay for a school uniform. As a proportion of that money goes directly to the school, parents are being forced to pay for what is supposed to be a free service. How can anyone justify that?

@rob19 Hi Rob, I come at this from the view point as a school child in the 70s and 80s and a father of kids currently at school. The head at their school is pretty strict in all areas of school life and I have seen change in my kids since they started there in how they've become more organised and responsible. The uniform is part of that. We talk about school all the time and they groan about it for sure. I just try and explain why it's important.

I remember hating school rules and discipline and was at school when they gave the cane and threw chalk and chalk erasers at your head if you weren't paying attention. Rules are rules I suppose. They're in the work place so the sooner we learn the importance the less of culture shock we get if we choose that kind of career.

@suzie1960 I'm not well off Suzie but what does well off mean these days. That's the debate to have

@Ironicman Well off can mean not having to choose between heating and eating. The rip-off prices of school uniforms force more families into that situation. Headteachers on good salaries (£100K?) don't understand that or don't care.

Regarding your reply to Rob19. If uniform is so important, how do you explain the much higher educational standards in countries without school uniform (e.g. the rest of Europe). Finland is about the best but the others aren't far behind yet they don't have school uniforms.

I put it down to teachers spending their time teaching rather than checking the colour of students' socks and isolating those students whose parents decided to eat that week rather than splash out on a new school shirt.

I cant explain that Suzie as I'm not and education researcher or specialist but what I can explain from my own experiences is that a child's development in school is based upon support at school from parents. It could be that those countries you mention have better social balance allowing the parents to spend more time supporting and taking an interest in their child's education rather than working zero hours contracts or long shifts at weekends.

Kids school uniform is checked on entry before the school day starts and at the gates. Takes seconds. No one's hardly ever sent home in this.

Who knows? What do your kids or nieces or nephews think?

@Ironicman forgot to say, no heating on here yet since March. Bubble and squeak tomorrow. It's been great debating with you. Do you mind if I add you to my circle?

@Ironicman Perhaps we should learn from those countries rather than doing the opposite of what they do. It's obvious our system isn't working with children leaving school barely able to read and write one language, never mind 2 or 3, despite wearing full school uniform. Maybe other countries have more competent teachers, interested in teachers rather than strutting around their little empires.

The idea of teachers standing sentry at the school gate checking children's uniforms is ridiculous. It's like a comedy sketch from Monty Python. You say is takes secods. Soory, I don't believe that at all. There is no way a teacher can completely check a single child's uniform, including the shade of socks; length of skirts; jewellery; make-up; and all the other petty uniform requirements. Even then, I'm sure some unapproved items will get through. No doubt the girls have great fun putting one over the teachers by wearing their skirts a millimetre or two shorter than permitted.

The teachers are just setting themselves up as a laughing stock.

When my children were at school, the uniform rules were actually unfawful. The headmaster was forced to back down when I took legal action against the school after he told me he didn't care what the law said. Do you think he was a good role model for his students?

@Ironicman [quote]Rules are rules I suppose. They're in the work place so the sooner we learn the importance the less of culture shock we get if we choose that kind of career.[/quote]

There's a big difference. In the workplace, the victims of unreasonable or unlawful rules are adults who are able to fight back by taking legal action if necessary. Like typical bullies, schools pick on children who are not so able to fight back. Parents are reluctant to take legal action for fear of making things even worse for their children.

Headteachers know damn well they would never get away with bullying adult employees the way they bully students. They'd quickly find themselves in court, if not hospital!

Cheers Rob; The work place can be just as bad, trust me. I've been there for the past 30 or so years. You're obviously extremely passionate about education rights for children and I wish you all the best in fighting their corner. I think I've said all I can on this one so will have the final word by saying I'm working from home today in a scruffy T shirt and joggers and feel liberated from my stuffy suit. Have a good week buddy