For men who are pro life: what would you say to being told that you don't have a right over your own body? Because that's what you're telling women.

@Budwick

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you clarify your point?

@Pikachu Of course you understand.

It's your made up circumstances I responded to.

@Budwick

What made up circumstances?

@Pikachu [quote]For men who are pro life: what would you say to being told that you don't have a right over your own body?[/quote]

@Budwick

Well how is murdering someone robbing someone of their right to bodily autonomy?
I guess i'm not clear how how you're comparing these two issues.

If you decide that a woman has no right to her own body because the fetus needs it then by the same token you could say that a man has no right over his body if say, someone needed his kidney to survive.

I'm not sure where murdering someone entirely separate from you enters into it?

@Pikachu [quote]I guess i'm not clear how how you're comparing these two issues.[/quote]

You want to pretend that the aborted child isn't murdered.
THAT is where and why honest answers are foggy to you.

@Budwick

Well it's not pretending, bud. I genuinely don't consider it murder because i genuinely don't consider a fetus as having any meaningful qualities of personhood.

That said, you appear to be conflating the issues.
Surely you would agree that there is a difference between murdering someone on the street and killing someone who was trying to harm you, enslave you or potentially kill you, yes?

@Pikachu I'm conflating ?

Killing a human is murder.

If I were to h ave scrambled your brain while you were in your mothers womb, or if I scrambled your brain this afternoon - they're both murder. And, as tempting as one or the other might be - wrong.

@Budwick

I understand that you consider it murder, bud. That's not what i'm asking you.

If we want to reduce it to basic terms, i'm asking if you understand the difference between murder and killing in self defense.

Do you?

@Pikachu [quote]the difference between murder and killing in self defense.[/quote]

Yes, and I understand the difference between brownies and cookies too.

Maybe look up the definition of Conflating there, Sparky.

@Budwick So if a dialysis patient needs a kidney, and you are a match, the government should be able to force you to donate one of yours, because your convenience doesn't outweigh the dialysis patient's right to life. Is that what you're saying?

Assume the dialysis patient is your child, and for whatever reason, you'd prefer to not make the donation.

@Budwick If "killing a human is murder," then should we charge soldiers with murder when they return from warfare? Clearly, some instances of taking human life are not "murder." So you may want to stop using that word purely for emotional effect.

Vegans say "meat is murder," but that doesn't mean they can call the cops if you're eating a steak.

@Budwick
No it's ok, conflating is exactly what you were doing. You were conflating murder and killing in defense of one's own body. What we're doing here is making those two ideas distinct.

Ok so you do understand the difference.

You understand that murdering someone is different then defending your body from something they want to do to it, yes?

If i decide that i'm going to take one of your kidneys because i need it, you would be allowed to kill me so that i don't take it.
If i decided i just wanted to cut your face up and leave some scars, you would be allowed to kill me to defend yourself from that harm.
If i decided i was going to rape you and after that you would still be able to live a healthy life, you would be allowed to kill me to stop me from doing that to you.

You agree with all of these examples. You only make the exception for a fetus making use of a woman's uterus against her will.

Justify that exception or concede.

@LeopoldBloom Are you trying to equate abortion and war?
Or, abortion and vegan?

@Pikachu [quote]You were conflating murder and killing in defense of one's own body.[/quote]

No, that's exactly what YOU are doing.

What do you think the baby would do in defense of his/her own body?
Of course, the unborn can do nothing.
Normally, a mother would do everything in her power to defend her child.
You, on the other hand are promoting that they should kill their own.

@Budwick



I'm sure the fetus would if it could try to defend itself just as the mother is defending herself.
That makes no comment on the right of bodily autonomy.

So i'm going to post this again and i ask that you address it directly this time:

[b]If i decide that i'm going to take one of your kidneys because i need it, you would be allowed to kill me so that i don't take it.
If i decided i just wanted to cut your face up and leave some scars, you would be allowed to kill me to defend yourself from that harm.
If i decided i was going to rape you and after that you would still be able to live a healthy life, you would be allowed to kill me to stop me from doing that to you.

You agree with all of these examples. You only make the exception for a fetus making use of a woman's uterus against her will.
You agree with the right to bodily autonomy in every case except this one.

Justify that exception or concede.[/b]

@Pikachu Where was her sense of 'bodily autonomy' when she got knocked up?

YOur metaphors are more stupid than Hazels!

@Budwick

Exactly where it should be at all times. She consented. You understand the importance of a woman's [i]consent[/i] don't you?

You seem keen to avoid my question and the responsibilities associated with the answer.
But i'm afraid i shall be insisting that you do give a direct answer.
One last time:

[b][i]If i decide that i'm going to take one of your kidneys because i need it, you would be allowed to kill me so that i don't take it.
If i decided i just wanted to cut your face up and leave some scars, you would be allowed to kill me to defend yourself from that harm.
If i decided i was going to rape you and after that you would still be able to live a healthy life, you would be allowed to kill me to stop me from doing that to you.

You agree with all of these examples. You only make the exception for a fetus making use of a woman's uterus against her will.
You agree with the right to bodily autonomy in every case except this one.

Justify that exception or concede.
[/i][/b]

@Budwick Got it. So by having sex, the woman consents to giving birth, and should be forced to do so at gunpoint if necessary.

So you agree that if one of your kids needs a kidney, and you don't want to donate it, you should be forced to do so anyway, because by having sex you consented to having your body used for the furtherance of your child's life.

I'm aware that you would probably do this anyway, but we're talking about a situation where the parent prefers not to. So the question is whether the government can intervene and force the situation on pain of death.

@LeopoldBloom [quote]I'm aware that you would probably do this anyway, but we're talking about a situation where the parent prefers not to[/quote]

Then ask that person your same dumb question.

[quote]So the question is whether the government can intervene and force the situation on pain of death.[/quote]

Pain of death?
The babies?

Oh, no you probably meant Mother, the woman that wants to kill her unborn. Is she still a mother?

Your questions as usual are bass ackwards.
The life pro-lifers are concerned with is the babies life.
Mom already has hers, and wouldn't lose it by giving birth.

@Budwick I don't care if you want to call her a "mother" or anything else. I'm asking if the government should force her to give birth against her will.

You wouldn't lose your life by donating a kidney, so you should be forced to do so by making it a capital offense to refuse.

@LeopoldBloom [quote]You wouldn't lose your life by donating a kidney, [/quote]

You're right!
I'm still alive!

And so are 99.999999% of mothers that gave birth.

While 100 % of aborted babies are dead.
Not even given a funeral.
Just thrown out with medical trash.

You represent a very ugly alternative Hazel.

@Budwick Assuming you're not lying about donating a kidney, do you think the government should force people to donate against their will? Because that would be consistent with your forced-birth position.

@LeopoldBloom [quote] that would be consistent with your forced-birth position.[/quote]

Not even close.

@Budwick So women should be forced to give birth, but other people should not be forced to donate kidneys.

Expecting consistency from you is a mistake.