How do you feel about transgenders using the bathroom of he gender they identify as?

@Reject

In what way?

@Pikachu Guys using the ladies room and claiming to be transgendered just so they can.

@Reject I worry that there will be an incident like this too, and it's going to be a litmus test for a lot of folks.

@Reject

And what is the real world danger of that? What is the venn diagram of men who want to listen to women go the the bathroom, who want to do it in public, who want to pretend to be a woman to do it and who are prepared to deal with the shitstorm that accompanies that action?

Is it a real danger or an imagined one?

@Reject just so they can...what?

@Pikachu I think you'd be surprised. Guys can be really perverted or rebellious. Passing a law like this allows them to potentially harass women in restrooms or at the very least make them uncomfortable.

@Reject

[quote]law like this allows them to potentially harass women in restrooms [/quote]

Really? Explain how this will allow for harassment. Are you under the impression that a man is totally allowed to harass another man in the men's room? Why aren't gay men and women taking advantage of this?

Oh that's right, because harassing someone in a restroom is not allowed no matter which gender or which bathroom.

@Pikachu I'm not saying the harassment is allowed, I'm saying it's not only easier to harass with that law, but easier to get away with it as well.

@Reject

Which is was gay men and lesbians are always harassing people in the bathroom, right?

You see what i'm saying?

@Pikachu Gay people are a minority. Straight men aren't. Gay people are often afraid of the social stigma and most can't even come out to their families about it, much less make the decision to publicly harass someone under that sexuality. Straight men have nothing to fear.

@Reject

lol what year do you think this is?

Anyway, why is it that in places where transgenders are allowed to use their preferred bathroom there are no instance of increased harassment?

Oh, because straight men who want to harass women, especially in a bathroom are ALSO a minority.
So in fact what you're talking about is an imagined problem based on nothing but paranoia. Fair?

@Pikachu I think it's a year that gay people still have troubles in.

Minority or not, it still happens and I just feel bad for the women who have dealt with men harassing them in restrooms. It's not completely imaginary. There are incidents and anytime it happens is sad to me.

@Reject

lol yes, gays are too afraid to harass people in the bathroom and that's why they don't do it.
I'd be interested to see you support that assertion.

Sorry, you side stepped my point and i'd like you to address it directly.

In places where these transgender bathrooms laws already exist, there is no increase in harassment in bathrooms.
So your fear of straight men taking advantage of this to harass women is based in paranoia, not in reality. Agree or disagree?

@Pikachu In places is vague, and we even had a commenter here who mentioned a local incident where he is. Simply because you read some statistics online doesn't make them the most accurate things in the world. I'm certain there have been cases, even if they're few.

@Reject

"There’s also no evidence that nondiscrimination laws — and other policies that let trans people use the bathroom for their gender identity — lead to sexual assault in bathrooms and locker rooms. In two investigations, left-leaning media watchdog organization Media Matters confirmed with experts and officials in 12 states and 17 school districts with protections for trans people that they had no increases in sex crimes after they enacted their policies."

https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/4/6/17197910/anchorage-alaska-transgender-proposition-1

Sorry, i'ma stop you right there because you just made the argument that ANECDOTAL evidence should be considered more reliable than statistical evidence.
Are there instances of this kind of thing happening? I'd be shocked if there weren't. Just as i'm sure those terrified gays still manage to harass another man or two lol.

@Pikachu Again, not everything you read on the internet is true. It's simply unrealistic to think that since those laws were enacted, there was never once a time ever were some guy took advantage of them. It would be shocking if no one ever did and everyone was perfectly well behaved. People aren't like that. I'm simply saying I worry and feel for bad the times it happens. That's all.

@Reject

And if you can find a source which calls this data into question then be my guest. Simply saying "don't believe everything you read" is not a counter argument.

So let's recap:

Despite the lack of evidence supporting your position, you still think that it could be a problem. I'm glad you feel bad in the cases where it happens but that doesn't make it legitimate concern for the general population.
Your concerns are not based in fact, they are based in paranoia

@Pikachu Simply pointing out things you read online is not a couter argument either. That's why I haven't done that.

I think it could be a problem for some people sometimes, yes. I never said it was a concern for the general population. That doesn't mean I'm paranoid, it means I acknowledge that people do bad things and have in the case of these laws. As much as you think your internet sources are facts, they aren't.

@Reject

Actually citing sources is generally a very good example of a strong argument. You can refute it or you can accept it.
What you can't do is ignore it so that you can carry on with your pet theory. You said i was being vague so i gave you something more specific. Now the best you can do is to dismiss it on the basis that it's on the internet. This is not intellectually honest.

You said " Passing a law like this allows them to potentially harass women in restrooms". I pointed out that harassment is already illegal and that there is no data to support this assertion.

So did you have any response to that beyond "I feel bad for the cases where it happens" ?

@Pikachu Do I need more response than that? What do you want from me?

@Reject

A logical defense of your position. It's ok if that's not your bag. But I expect people to have good reasons for their opinions and good arguments for their assertions.

@Pikachu I see. I don't believe I can provide you with that. Logical to you is sources online which I don't care to go find even though I know I could. Good reasons for my opinions are entirely subjective and you've shown me that you don't agree with my reasons so there's not much I can do there. The same goes for good arguments.

@Reject


No, logic to me is pointing out that gay people aren't assaulting people in the bathroom even though they're sexually attracted to that gender.
Logic which you countered with another UN-supported assertion about gay people being too afraid to do it.

[quote]which I don't care to go find even though I know I could[/quote]

No you couldn't. Find me a source showing an increase in bathroom harassment in places where transgenders are allowed to use the bathroom of their choice.
But as you say, you can't be bothered. Let me be clear: asserting that you are correct without being able to support your assertion is not intellectually honest. It's on the same rhetoric level as "I know you are but what am i?"

Good arguments are no subjective. They rely on logic and evidence. You have supplied neither.

@Pikachu I can't explain why I made those assertions to you because you don't understand them. You're too busy looking for evidence or support of some kind. You don't seem to know that people exist outside of evidence and support.

The internet is vast. Somewhere on it are sources that stand against yours. I guarantee it.

I never asserted that I was correct about anything. I merely gave you my perspective. You're the one who's obsessed with fact checking and making sure everything has credit of some kind. Even credit can be false. You seem to rely too much on information because you can't accept that a world exists outside of it and not all information is true.