@GodSpeed63 It sure is. ❤

@LadyGrace Thank you for such a thoughtful reply 🙏 I'd certainly love to discuss things more

I know we completely agree that worship belongs to God alone (and that you're not saying that Catholics 'worship' the saints). And all prayer has its source and end in God.

We have to remember I suppose that 'to pray' or 'prayer' are really just survivals from old/middle English meaning 'to ask'. (As in all the 'prithees' - ie "I pray three" scattered in Shakespeare). The Latin 'orare' means the same thing (and also a separate sense of giving a public speech as in the English 'oration'). It isn't worship to pray, but prayer can (and probably should) of course be a part of worship.

In Romans 15 St Paul asks us to pray for him. Meanwhile St James (5:16) encourages us all to pray for each other - specifically adding that "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." And all that Catholics (and the Orthodox, and many Anglicans, Lutherans, etc) would add is that we don't believe that death doesn't sever that responsibility that as Christians we have to pray for each (where is death's sting, after all?!); and without getting into the weeds about recognising or canonising saints in this discussion here - what are the saints but those men and women whom we know to be righteous? So of itself I don't think it's wrong to ask for their own prayers.

And I don't think that St Paul in asking for prayers, or in II Corinthians (I can't remember where without doing some searching) describing himself as an 'ambassador for Christ', is undermining Christ's role; he's (as we all may) sharing in it. The prayers of saints don't bypass Christ but pass through him.

As for the angels in the Book of Revelation refusing worship (quite rightly, of course), they don't refuse requests for assistance. (Indeed, in 5:8 the incense they burn is explicitly described as "the prayers of the saints"). And the "great cloud of witnesses" imagery in Hebrews doesn't, I'd (or Catholics would!) argue a silent audience but a communion - people praying for each other. The Church Militant and Church Triumphant in the Catholic conception aren't isolated from each other.

If we ask Our Lady or any other saint to pray for us, we're expressing I suppose our confidence in Christ's victory over death. Love, prayer, and care, cannot be extinguished by death (I'm sure we agree on this last point as well!).

Anyway I need to dash but I look forward to more discussions in time to come :) God bless you

@Persephonee I very much look forward to discussing scripture with you, thank you so much. I may not be understanding what you're trying to say, I'm not real sure so I'll just touch on some things if that's okay. I want to make sure I'm understanding you so I can make an informed reply. Let's take this one step at a time okay? We'll address each thing here. Please tell me if I'm understanding you right.

Great!! I love Bible study, so thank you. You mentioned communicating with the Saints. The Bible describes Saints as anyone who has accepted Christ as their Savior, living or dead. Please help me understand what you mean exactly, when you and talk about "prayer and communion with the Saints, as that is confusing to me. Scripture emphasizes the biblical teaching that the dead are unaware of what's happening on earth, as mentioned in Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Psalm 115:17. These verses teach that praying to saints in heaven, isn't biblically supported, since they can't hear or respond.

I'm focusing on a direct relationship with God through Jesus, as described in passages like John 14:6 and 1 Timothy 2:5., which prioritize communication with the living God who is actively present and engaged with His people.

And yes, we completely agree that worship belongs to God alone, that I'm not saying that Catholics 'worship' the saints, and all prayer has its source and end in God. 👍

Let's look at this together: "It isn't worship to pray, but prayer can (and probably should) of course be a part of worship."

What I hear you saying, is that you are making a distinction between worship as an act of reverence due only to God, and prayer as a broader form of communication or request that can be part of worship, but isn't exclusively worship.

I'm coming from a slightly different angle. I see prayer as an act of worship when directed to God, which aligns with biblical teachings that emphasize worshiping God alone. I agree that both our perspectives have merit.

While prayer is indeed an act of worship when directed to God, it's also true that prayer can encompass various aspects, such as thanksgiving, confession, petition, and intercession. So, while worship is a key component of prayer, prayer itself can be multifaceted. I conclude that prayer isn't exclusively worship in the sense that it can serve different purposes, but worship is certainly a fundamental aspect of prayer. Now, on to your next point:

We have to remember I suppose that 'to pray' or 'prayer' are really just survivals from old/middle English meaning 'to ask'. (As in all the 'prithees' - ie "I pray three" scattered in Shakespeare). The Latin 'orare' means the same thing (and also a separate sense of giving a public speech as in the English 'oration'). It isn't worship to pray, but prayer can (and probably should) of course be a part of worship.


To pray and prayer, are really just survivals...meaning, to ask? I couldn't say primarily. There are many aspects of prayer. When we pray, we're not always asking, for example. We pour our hearts out to God at times, we praise him, we pray for certain people, relatives, family, friends, we seek wisdom and guidance, etc.

Let's look at this: In Romans 15 St Paul asks us to pray for him. Meanwhile St James (5:16) encourages us all to pray for each other - specifically adding that "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." And all that Catholics (and the Orthodox, and many Anglicans, Lutherans, etc) would add is that we don't believe that death doesn't sever that responsibility that as Christians we have to pray for each (where is death's sting, after all?!); and without getting into the weeds about recognising or canonising saints in this discussion here - what are the saints but those men and women whom we know to be righteous? So of itself I don't think it's wrong to ask for their own prayers.

When I look at the above, I have to remember that Saints are described as the living and the dead as well, who have accepted Jesus as their Savior. That being said, Paul did ask for prayer. And you're right, the Bible does say for us to pray for each other, Saints and the unsaved, alike. I noticed in that verse that Paul is still here on earth, not in heaven. If he were in heaven, the Bible would instruct us not to pray to Saints. I really don't see one verse in the Bible that says to pray for people after they are gone. Rather, it says that it is appointed unto man once to die, and after that the judgment. That means there's no Second Chances when it comes to eternity. That's why Jesus tells us to make that decision for salvation now, not after we pass, because he says then it's too late. And nowhere in the Bible can I find any verse that supports reincarnation. In fact that very verse I spoke of, speaks against that theory. That is why Jesus said today is the day of salvation, for you know not what tomorrow may bring, so you cannot boast that you'll have it. That Bible verse is very concrete to me. When I leave this world it tells me nobody is going to be able to affect my eternal destination. They will not be able to pray me into heaven or pray me out of hell. Today is the day of salvation.

Proverbs 27:1 warns against the foolishness of assuming one has control over the future. This principle is also echoed in the New Testament book of James which connects it to the urgency of salvation. Proverbs 27:1, "Do not boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what a day may bring."

In James 4:13-14, the Apostle James expands on this idea, emphasizing the brevity and uncertainty of life, which underpins the need for living for God today: "come now, you who say today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit ---- yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time, and then vanishes."

Jesus urges us to take care of our spiritual side today with great urgency, in preparing our souls for heaven. Once we cross over, there's no changing our minds and there's no praying us into heaven. That's because salvation is a personal choice which determines where we shall spend eternity. We are the ones that either accept or deny Christ. That choice belongs to no one else. I truly wish that were possible, to simply pray everyone into heaven whether they are living here on Earth or have passed. I would be praying 24/7 if that were the case to get people into heaven. It doesn't work that way. And we must not leave our souls to chance. What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his own soul? Salvation is determined strictly by our own choice. We are accountable only for ourselves, not others.

Let's look at 2 Corinthians 16, which states, for He says, "In an acceptable time, I have heard you, and in the day of salvation, I have helped you. Behold.....NOW is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. This verse tells us that we should act on our Salvation today, because tomorrow is not guaranteed. For those people who assume that they can live like the devil every day of the week and then just before they die, they can make a decision to follow Jesus so they can save their soul, are sadly mistaken. Scripture is very clear about this and adamant. We must not put our trust and faith in what any man tells us in this world, but solely put our love and trust in the words of Jesus, since He is the way, the truth, and the life. I believe even the verse that says 'No man cometh to the Father but by Me', further cements the idea that no one else can pray for us because we can only get to to heaven and our heavenly Father through Jesus. That also drives home the point that we only come to the Father through Jesu...., not through saints, not through Mary, not through anyone but Jesus. If that were the case, I'm very sure that Jesus would have told us. We don't need anyone to pray us into heaven after we die. That's not possible. Paul never said, 'Pray for me when I die." But he did ask for plenty of prayer for strength and perseverance and to be faithful to Christ till the end.

Jesus is our sole mediator between God and humanity (1 Timothy 2:5). This emphasizes the direct access we have to God through Jesus.

The Bible encourages us to pray to God and directs our prayers to Him (Matthew 6:9). It doesn't instruct believers to ask saints in heaven to intercede for them. Instead, it highlights the importance of going directly to God through Jesus.

Scripture also warns against idolatry and giving worship to anyone or anything other than God (Exodus 20:3-5). I want to make sure I'm giving God the worship and honor that belongs to Him alone.

In the Bible, it says the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5) and that Jesus is the one who responds to our prayers, not saints (John 14:6). This is why I do not pray to saints, as I believe it undermines Jesus' role as our mediator.

I believe that praying to saints might unintentionally shift the focus away from God's sovereignty and Jesus' sacrifice. Why would we want to take away from Jesus' mission and sacrifice, when we can go directly to God the Father through Him? Did you know that in the Old Testament, it says that priests would no longer be necessary to mediate for us, after Jesus died on the cross and became our only mediator between God and man? We do not need a mediator to go to God on our behalf, respectfully. This is why we have Jesus, our blessed mediator, forever and ever. We have pure access to God, through Jesus, and that is a beautiful thing.

I feel like praying to saints implies that God is distant or harsh, requiring intermediaries, which contradicts the scriptural portrayal of a compassionate God, accessible through Jesus.

I like your point about ambassadors. Those who love Christ are all ambassadors/witnesses for Christ; not mediators in place of Christ. That's the big difference. Nowhere in the Bible, does tell people to pray to Saints instead of Jesus.

Discussion: The prayers of saints don't bypass Christ but pass through him.

I do believe the Saints in heaven pray for us. There's nothing wrong with that statement, you're right. The prayers of saints do not pass to him.

Respectfully, let's look at: "As for the angels in the Book of Revelation refusing worship (quite rightly, of course), they don't refuse requests for assistance. (Indeed, in 5:8 the incense they burn is explicitly described as "the prayers of the saints"). And the "great cloud of witnesses" imagery in Hebrews doesn't, I'd (or Catholics would!) argue a silent audience but a communion - people praying for each other. The Church Militant and Church Triumphant in the Catholic conception aren't isolated from each other."

I'm looking at what you're saying here, carefully. You said while angels in the Book of Revelation refuse worship, they don't refuse requests for assistance. Meaning, our request for assistance. I'm wondering why anyone would pray to Angels when God said only to pray to him. He doesn't need the Angel's help. He hears our prayers the minute we speak to him in prayer. Where in the Bible does it say to pray to Angels? I believe that breaks the first commandment. Jesus said not to place any other gods before Him. The "gods" He speaks of, can come in any form of idolatry, whether we worship idols, or place things ahead of him which become a priority over him like cars, riches, anything that gets our attention, like making the TV our idle and ignoring God and reading his word. It could be mansions...which includes anything that takes the place of God and is placed before him. The Bible says see he first the kingdom of God and then our needs shall be given. Not selfish once, but our needs, real needs, like survival, food, clothing, things like that.

People in heaven don't commune to pray for each other. Their prayers are for us and our salvation. I've never seen the words Church Militant and Church Triumphant in the Bible, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. I'm in the habit of if it's not in the bible, I don't listen to it. It's not part of God's word in my view, so I do not pay tribute to it.

Now, you mentioned, "Indeed, in 5:8 the incense they burn is explicitly described as "the prayers of the saints")".

I would respectfully like to ask you, how could the deceased Saints in heaven hear the prayers of the Saints on Earth, if the dead know nothing? I take that literally. The deceased saints in heaven can hear earthly prayers not through human senses, but through their perfect communion with God, who reveals these petitions to them, allowing the saints to intercede for us, as part of the unified Body of Christ, a concept known as the Communion of Saints, where heavenly and earthly members are united in God's love, as described in Scripture and tradition. They are fully aware of our needs, and direct prayers to God, not prayers to themselves, then act as powerful intercessors.

Saints in heaven are in the direct presence of God (the source of all knowledge). God, in His infinite love, makes relevant prayers known to them, allowing them to participate in His work.

I emphasize that point, because I think the following is very important to observe. Death does NOT sever the SPIRITUAL BOND of the Church, ( all Born Again Believers in Christ). That is, Saints remain part of Christ's Body, so through Jesus, they share in the spiritual life and needs of believers on Earth. But that doesn't mean God wants us to pray to them, instead of Jesus. I feel we should remember particularly at this point that the Bible says that Jesus is our only mediator between God and man. Only mediator, excludes all others including angels and Saints.

Yes, saints in heaven can hear earthly prayers not through human senses, but through their perfect communion with God, who reveals these petitions to elders, which in turn, allows the saints to intercede for us through prayer, as part of the unified Body of Christ, a concept known as the Communion of Saints, where heavenly and earthly members are united in God's love, as described in Scripture and tradition.

Hebrews 12:1: Mentions a "great cloud of witnesses" (saints) surrounding us, representing that they observe and know our struggles.

Revelation 5:8: Shows angels and elders (saints) offering earthly prayers to God as incense, indicating awareness and presentation.

Intercession, Not Mediation: Saints don't replace Jesus. They pray through Him, bringing our requests to the Father, just as we ask fellow believers on Earth to pray for us.

Living in God: They are more alive and aware in heaven, able to perceive earthly matters through their perfect knowledge of God, rather than through earthly senses like hearing.

In essence, it's God who enables the saints to know and intercede, using them as channels of His grace and mercy, continuing the spiritual unity of the Church.

And finally, last, but not least: If we ask Our Lady or any other saint to pray for us, we're expressing I suppose our confidence in Christ's victory over death. Love, prayer, and care, cannot be extinguished by death (I'm sure we agree on this last point as well!).

On this point, and I have truly enjoyed reading all your points. However, on your last point, if we're expressing our confidence in Christ's victory over death, then why do we need to ask one of the Saints to pray for us? Why not go directly to Jesus? Our only mediator between God and man? Why bypass him? How do you think Jesus would feel about that after dying on the cross and suffering so badly just so we could have access to God our Father by going straight to Jesus? Why would he honor that? I have never seen a human in history suffer as badly as our Lord when he died on the cross and carried all our sins on him. No one will ever be able to express the pain, suffering, and torture that Jesus suffered on that cross the day he died for our sins, so that we could come to him for our every need. Saints are not God. Not even close. I think that would break Jesus is hard after all the torture and torment he went through for us. I just can't see where we would need anyone but Jesus because he provides every one of our needs. And nothing is impossible through Christ who loves us and died for us. Was it in vain? I think if we ignore him and turn to others to meet our needs, instead of Christ, I feel that is ignoring him, I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly feel that is disrespectful and ignoring him if I do that. The blood of Christ covers all sins and meets every single need we have. Nothing is more powerful than the blood of Jesus to take care of our every need. Nothing and no one, is what the Bible says and I have to agree with all my heart and soul.

This is not about religious doctrine or rituals. It's not about any religions at all. Religion is described as man-made philosophy. Religion did not die on the cross to save us from our sins. The person of Jesus did. This Christmas, I pray that all will adore Jesus, not ignore him.

I invite you and I truly look forward to your perspective on all of these things. And this is definitely not about who is right or wrong. It's about studying our Bible and being in harmony with it. God's word is so precious and he doesn't want us to get off track with other philosophies. Jesus said, "I am the door..." not angels or saints. Hebrews 12:2 directs believers to fix their eyes on Jesus, not earthly matters, as the source of hope and joy.

And you're right. Memories of loved ones on Earth might remain, but without the sting of pain. The hope of reunion, as seen in David's words (2 Samuel 12:23) and Jesus' teachings, is a source of comfort, not sadness, because it’s a perfect, joyful reunion with God and others.

With glorified bodies, believers experience perfection, making earthly suffering irrelevant.

In essence, the perfect joy of heaven, rooted in God's presence, transforms any potential sadness from earthly awareness, into a deeper understanding and celebration of God's grace.

God bless you, sister! I love you. ❤🤗🫂 I know this is long, but you asked me. 😂🤭🙏

I'll give you as long as you need to study it and I look forward to your reply. God bless and take care.

@DanielsASJ
"I am glad that The Catholic Church clarified it's stance on Mother Mary. Apostles and Mary should be respected but not prayed to. For They were mortal human beings."

Absolutely. The Bible says we should not be blown about by every wind of Doctrine but to test them and if they don't match exactly with God's word, to find a church that does preach the pure word. There are many false teachers out there, the Bible warns about.

@Hireath Just like any other denominations, Christ knows which in the church are truly dedicated to him and love him.

I understand where you're coming from, but I cannot agree that one denomination is inherently more 'pure' than the other. Each has its own unique aspects and strengths.

As John 3:16 shows us, Jesus is our mediator and way of salvation, not just for certain groups, but for the world. Salvation is available for all, and that's a message that transcends denominations.

I hope you and yours have a wonderful Merry Christmas. ❤

@FreestyleArt I sure hope so brother. This world needs a lot of fixing and Jesus is our only hope.

@peterlee Yes, I recently just checked that out. I came to the conclusion that deeper Bible delving is needed. Much study.

@peterlee Yes, Revelation 12 is difficult.

"Revelation Chapter 12 describes a cosmic battle between good and evil, featuring a symbolic woman (representing Israel/the Church/Mary), her male child (Jesus Christ), and a great red dragon (Satan), highlighting Satan's attempt to destroy the Messiah and God's protection for His people, culminating in Satan's defeat and expulsion from heaven, leading to a fierce persecution of believers on Earth." I'm studying this now.

@LadyGrace Catholics see the woman mentioned there as Mary. There are other interpretations.

Isaiah 54 suggests it’s the old covenant people.
Galatians 4.26 suggests is the new covenant people.

@Virgo79 I'm thankful for Christ. I just relay his message. I don't know what I would do without him. He truly saved my life

@LadyGrace that's what creates miracles 🙂

@Musicman That was an interesting read. Thank you for that.

@LadyGrace Yes it was. You are very welcome. 😊

@LavidaRaq

Thank you so much. I thought this year I would approach Christmas from a different angle than people are used to hearing.

@eyeno 🤗❤ You're welcome. Speaking of birthdays, I got an extra bonus this year. I'm going to see my family in what has been so so long and we're going to celebrate on the 16th which is next week because on the 17th, my birthday, I really lucked out haha. They are having the Christmas party here with all the residents invited right on my birthday! 🤪😆😂😂 There will be the best food and live entertainment. I can't wait! I don't know what the dessert will be, probably pie and all kinds of stuff again like they did for thanksgiving, but I do know we're having Fried Chicken, mashed potatoes and gravy and probably coleslaw and green beans and then dessert haha I am excited. I'll be fabulous 80!! 😂 so this is a really big birthday for me.

@LadyGrace Happy Birthday and enjoy the food festivities !

@onewithshoes

Your love for Christ obviously shines through. I appreciate your thoughts on Christians being called to share God's grace. While it's true that we participate in sharing God's love, I think it's essential to recognize that Christ is our sole mediator between God and humanity. Our role is to witness and point others to Jesus, who is the mediator of the new covenant. I just want to be careful to give Christ His due reverence and recognition as our mediator.

Respectfully, my post aims to highlight scripture involving the unique role of Christ as mediator for the world. As John 3:16 shows us, Jesus is our mediator and way of salvation, not just for certain groups, but for the world. Salvation is available for all, and I believe that's a message that transcends denominations.