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Egalitarianism vs feminism vs men's rights movement. Which one is most useful to society?
22-25, M
33 replies
Nov 20, 2016
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CaptainCanadia · 36-40, M
Well if you crunch any numbers about the power structures of society you can clearly see women are at a disadvantage in nearly all ways. Men are disadvantaged in a few ways... but largely as a side-effect of oppression of women.

"Egalitarianism" is really about an 18th century liberal philosophy. But I get what you mean. I disagree because the empowerment of women may come at the expense of some power of men. Like... if women get equal representation in congress, some men are out of jobs, right? That loss of power is why MRAs exist - the rebalancing of society is going to alienate and upset some men. This is inevitable.

You can't make everyone happy here. It's about making everyone equal. Also, If eel the argument is a way to attack and discredit feminism. Feminism is not popular and doesn't have to be. It's necessary.
Are you kidding? First world women honestly have a ton of advantages over men. I hope you're not one of those people who think the wage gap is real. News flash, it's not.
CaptainCanadia · 36-40, M
I'm literally researching successful payouts for pay equity as I read this. I am going to a conference on Wednesday where I am going to talk about these payouts. Not only does the wage gap exist, I can find court cases that show payouts to women who were disadvantaged by it. The idea the wage gap doesn't exist is empirically wrong.
danondorf · 22-25, M
I disagree. If we're talking about a global scale i'd say female are more disadvantaged. If we're talking about the USA then i'd say there's not way that makes any sense.
The part I disagree more than anything else is the part about "If women get equal representation in congress some men are out of jobs, right?" That is collectivist talk. 1)as long as women aren't being forcefully kept out, if more men run and the people vote men into office then there's no problem. It's only if women ran as often and even got voted in as often that it would be a problem. 2)I'm not a fan of MRA's but I don't believe that's why they exist. The grievances they have I don't really know that I agree with but i'd have to look it it deeper.
If it truly is about equality, the egalitarianism makes more sense just by definition.

PS i'm really sorry to hear about your wife :/
@TyphoidJerry: For one it's illegal to pay women less, and if companies got away with paying women less then they would hire a lot more women, dontcha think?

The original study that claimed that women got 77 cents to everyone man's dollar was taken down. Also, the reason that there may be a gap between pay of men and women is because of (a) completely different jobs (the original study didn't specify if the men and women had the same job) (b) different levels of experience (c) different amounts of time working for the company (d) different work hours (men tend to work more than women), so on and so forth. There's far too many factors that go into any gap that may exist to so broadly claim that women get paid less than men simply because of their gender.

Women tend to take lower-paying jobs, they also aren't as comfortable negotiating their salary with bosses, and they tend to work less hours then men and take more vacation periods.

Instead of teaching women to consider themselves victims of everything, it would be far more helpful if you would actually encourage young girls to take jobs in S.T.E.M. fields and instill confidence in them so they can negotiate their pay with their bosses. Instead, you're encouraging women to complain about a non-existent gap. As a female, I'll heartily tell you that you're not helping in the slightest.
danondorf · 22-25, M
@TyphoidJerry: Wage gap is real in that females on average earn less. They earn less because they make decisions on average that result in that. It's not real in that it's because of sexism.
danondorf · 22-25, M
@Kindred: LOL I thought I was gonna respond with a good refutation and you just killed it. Nice job.
@danondorf: Aw, thank you.
CaptainCanadia · 36-40, M
@danondorf: Thanks for the concern on my wife, she's doing better. It's a long road, but it's going well :)

Well you can't force a quota on elected representatives anyways. But the idea here is that as more women run for office (and they are) eventually the numbers will change and represent the population. Right now, men dominate congress, and so men's voices and issues are more important. As there are fewer men, they'll be less important and we as a gender lose power. That loss of power is why MRAs are freaking out.
@TyphoidJerry: Oh man, I didn't know about your wife. Sorry to hear that. I second danondorf's comment. I wish you guys the best on your journey.
@TyphoidJerry: I still think Egalitarianism is better, partly because men have their struggles too. Sure, some MRA's are sexist, but a lot of them are fighting for things like proper sentencing for female statutory rapists and female rapists, equality in sentencing in general, equality in domestic violence cases and the court of law in general (men tend to always be seen as the perps, even if they are the victims), greater reparations if a man is falsely accused of sexual assault or rape, more support for male victims of rape, sexual assault and domestic violence, equality in child custody cases, so on and so forth. Feminism tends to ignore a lot of these problems. You can't fix the problems that both genders face when the name of your movement literally specifies what gender it favors. Also, in my opinion, discrimination against classes in society (especially economic ones) and even races are a greater issue than gender.

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