Quite apart from the argument about whether the God of Abraham exists, what argument would you make that he is worthy of love and worship?
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SW-User
@Pikachu well, I said it would be a reason for gratitude and wonder. Those are compatible with love and worship though of course not identical.
Traditional theology would agree that there isn't an overriding reason to love and worship God. The devil is said to be aware of God but not worship Him. Everyone presumably has that choice; therefore there isn't a reason for love and worship so compelling as to make them the only option.
Traditional theology would agree that there isn't an overriding reason to love and worship God. The devil is said to be aware of God but not worship Him. Everyone presumably has that choice; therefore there isn't a reason for love and worship so compelling as to make them the only option.
@SW-User
Well i'm not really asking if it's the only option. I'm asking based on what we know of god's character from the Bible if this god is one worthy of love and worship.
therefore there isn't a reason for love and worship so compelling as to make them the only option.
Well i'm not really asking if it's the only option. I'm asking based on what we know of god's character from the Bible if this god is one worthy of love and worship.
SW-User
@Pikachu The stories and such in the Bible have only a tangential relationship to how most believers understand God, in my experience.
SomeMichGuy · M
My argument that He *is* worthy of...a relationship...is this:
the most clear vision of Him given to us, generally, is in the Person of Jesus. In the four short Gospels, we have a vision of the One Who Is as a Being who cares about and for the most needy, destitute, broken, vulnerable. He healed the unhealable, eased people's burdens, passed out encouragement, forgiveness, blessings, brought Light...spoke Truth to the lowly and the powerful...and showed the best news: that God chooses NOT to judge...if you can [my eliding] accept Jesus' extended Hand and start a relationship...[closer to the text] acknowledge your own imperfection and ask for...your already intended place in Eternity...with humility & contrition.
The OT has problems which many armchair "scholars" who lap up the pap of YT fools have never stumbled upon, because they haven't even read the intros to each of the books of the Bible they read...
But many "Christians" don't start with the Gospels, which show us Jesus' take on the OT and His approach to our lives, etc.
Job shows a "God" who is just a "god", an obvious reflection of us, even the worst of us--a character like Zeus, who is vain, boastful, foolish, and cruel by his *own* words...
Jesus shows us...compassion, understanding, hope, a Way out & forward. *He* shows us a God worthy of belief and trust and relationship.
the most clear vision of Him given to us, generally, is in the Person of Jesus. In the four short Gospels, we have a vision of the One Who Is as a Being who cares about and for the most needy, destitute, broken, vulnerable. He healed the unhealable, eased people's burdens, passed out encouragement, forgiveness, blessings, brought Light...spoke Truth to the lowly and the powerful...and showed the best news: that God chooses NOT to judge...if you can [my eliding] accept Jesus' extended Hand and start a relationship...[closer to the text] acknowledge your own imperfection and ask for...your already intended place in Eternity...with humility & contrition.
The OT has problems which many armchair "scholars" who lap up the pap of YT fools have never stumbled upon, because they haven't even read the intros to each of the books of the Bible they read...
But many "Christians" don't start with the Gospels, which show us Jesus' take on the OT and His approach to our lives, etc.
Job shows a "God" who is just a "god", an obvious reflection of us, even the worst of us--a character like Zeus, who is vain, boastful, foolish, and cruel by his *own* words...
Jesus shows us...compassion, understanding, hope, a Way out & forward. *He* shows us a God worthy of belief and trust and relationship.
@SomeMichGuy
Well you have to ask yourself if the Bible as a whole is an accurate record of god's behaviour or not.
If it is not then you can cherry pick the bits you like.
If it is then you can't ignore the more brutal or cruel parts.
Well you have to ask yourself if the Bible as a whole is an accurate record of god's behaviour or not.
If it is not then you can cherry pick the bits you like.
If it is then you can't ignore the more brutal or cruel parts.
SomeMichGuy · M
@Pikachu It's a set of records of different people's interactions with God, including what was attributed to Him.
The Gospels are direct interactions with a being fully anointed as the Christ, and walking among persons for a few years of ministry. As such, they don't have interpretation of visions involved, or sporadic recording of interactions with only a very few.
It isn't cherry-picking to acknowledge scholarship about the oldest bits of Scripture (Gen 1-11, Job), the two competing ideas of God in Scripture, etc.
How is suggesting that Christians actually ought to focus on Christ as a means to acquire their mindset unsettling?
The Gospels are direct interactions with a being fully anointed as the Christ, and walking among persons for a few years of ministry. As such, they don't have interpretation of visions involved, or sporadic recording of interactions with only a very few.
It isn't cherry-picking to acknowledge scholarship about the oldest bits of Scripture (Gen 1-11, Job), the two competing ideas of God in Scripture, etc.
How is suggesting that Christians actually ought to focus on Christ as a means to acquire their mindset unsettling?
@SomeMichGuy
lol so is the NT. It's written by people who never me the person they're writing about.
The gospels are not a record of direct interaction, they're second hand accounts and if you consider them reliable references to the character of god then you must accept the OT in the same way.
And OT god has some big ol red flags.
It's not a problem if they focus on the NT. Of course they do, otherwise they'd just be Jews lol.
But you can't ignore the OT, you can't dismiss it ( as it seems you may be attempting to do) by considering it a less reliable record.
Either the Bible is the inspired word of god or it is not and if it is then this god fellow is highly problematic as a figure to love and worship. At least in my opinion.
including what was attributed to Him.
lol so is the NT. It's written by people who never me the person they're writing about.
The gospels are not a record of direct interaction, they're second hand accounts and if you consider them reliable references to the character of god then you must accept the OT in the same way.
And OT god has some big ol red flags.
How is suggesting that Christians actually ought to focus on Christ as a means to acquire their mindset unsettling?
It's not a problem if they focus on the NT. Of course they do, otherwise they'd just be Jews lol.
But you can't ignore the OT, you can't dismiss it ( as it seems you may be attempting to do) by considering it a less reliable record.
Either the Bible is the inspired word of god or it is not and if it is then this god fellow is highly problematic as a figure to love and worship. At least in my opinion.
antonioioio · 70-79, M
@antonioioio
There's no logical basis to accept that god is an eternal un-caused cause but reject that the universe could be an eternal un-caused cause. To do so would be a logical fallacy known as special pleading.
That said, "does god exist" is not the question under discussion in this thread but since i answered you, you're welcome to give one more response on that subject.
Their has to be something with no beginning to start it all,
There's no logical basis to accept that god is an eternal un-caused cause but reject that the universe could be an eternal un-caused cause. To do so would be a logical fallacy known as special pleading.
That said, "does god exist" is not the question under discussion in this thread but since i answered you, you're welcome to give one more response on that subject.
antonioioio · 70-79, M
@Pikachu of course their is no logic that's the point I'm making
Their has to no beginning to everything that we know as logic
Their has to no beginning to everything that we know as logic
AthrillatheHunt · 51-55, M
My existence is my argument .
@AthrillatheHunt
Then i won't ask you a hypothetical question.
Do you think an abusive father is worthy of love and respect from the child they abuse?
Then i won't ask you a hypothetical question.
Do you think an abusive father is worthy of love and respect from the child they abuse?
AthrillatheHunt · 51-55, M
@Pikachu dude. Your post was about our creator. I answered it honestly . Now you wanna take me down hypothetical rabbit holes talking about abusive parents ?
I didn’t have abusive parents . I don’t know how I would perceive life if I did
I didn’t have abusive parents . I don’t know how I would perceive life if I did
@AthrillatheHunt
I've explained why i'm going down this path of argumentation. You are under no obligation to continue if you don't want to.
I'm not asking you to imagine how you would react in that scenario, that would be hypothetical.
Im asking you if you think a parent who abuses their child deserves the love and respect of the child they abuse.
I've explained why i'm going down this path of argumentation. You are under no obligation to continue if you don't want to.
I didn’t have abusive parents . I don’t know how I would perceive life if I did
I'm not asking you to imagine how you would react in that scenario, that would be hypothetical.
Im asking you if you think a parent who abuses their child deserves the love and respect of the child they abuse.
reflectingmonkey · 51-55, M
bob dylan said it best " god said to Abraham "kill me a son", Ab said "man you must be putting me on", god said "no" , abe said "what?" , god said "you can do what you want but next time you see me comming you better run" . 🤣😂 you abey and when you die you go to this wonderful place where everything is perfect, you don't obey and he will make your life and the next a living hell, something like protection rackets offered by the mafia.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
That's up to you. Anthropologists say that infantacide is normal and parenting is over romanticized, not natural. They also say the contrary.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@Pikachu i did not get leave of any kind. I got raped by my nuclear family man of a husband, had a concussion and hid from the people who harvest babies from such as I.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@Pikachu nobody gets what they deserve, this is a real universe.
Abstraction · 61-69, M
I have very good reasons. But first tell me what you think worship is, because people's ability to grasp the topic gets completely lost right there.
@Abstraction
Well i think your image of what god is seems to be a positive influence on your life.
Although it seems to me also that much of the benefits you cite are not necessarily things one needs to get from worshiping a god.
I think where we mainly disagree though is in the picture you paint of god which to me seems, for lack of a better word, whitewashed.
To me that's like devoting yourself to scientology which, on its surface has as its mission statement to clear the whole world. A lot of people can get a lot of good from its programs and if you only look at that then scientology is great and beneficial.
But if you look at the whole picture is rather less wholesome.
I feel when we look at the whole picture of god as we learn about him in the Bible....there's a lot that would disqualify him from my love, respect or adoration. Or certainly if there was a human who behaved as he does then that person would not be one i'd invite into my home, much less my heart.
Well i think your image of what god is seems to be a positive influence on your life.
Although it seems to me also that much of the benefits you cite are not necessarily things one needs to get from worshiping a god.
I think where we mainly disagree though is in the picture you paint of god which to me seems, for lack of a better word, whitewashed.
To me that's like devoting yourself to scientology which, on its surface has as its mission statement to clear the whole world. A lot of people can get a lot of good from its programs and if you only look at that then scientology is great and beneficial.
But if you look at the whole picture is rather less wholesome.
I feel when we look at the whole picture of god as we learn about him in the Bible....there's a lot that would disqualify him from my love, respect or adoration. Or certainly if there was a human who behaved as he does then that person would not be one i'd invite into my home, much less my heart.
Abstraction · 61-69, M
@Pikachu
"much of the benefits you cite are not necessarily things one needs to get from worshiping a god." Totally agree. Not claiming otherwise on the specific things I listed. My list isn't exhaustive and chosen to highlight what makes sense to people without belief.
"I think where we mainly disagree though is in the picture you paint of god which to me seems, for lack of a better word, whitewashed." Totally disagree.
"much of the benefits you cite are not necessarily things one needs to get from worshiping a god." Totally agree. Not claiming otherwise on the specific things I listed. My list isn't exhaustive and chosen to highlight what makes sense to people without belief.
"I think where we mainly disagree though is in the picture you paint of god which to me seems, for lack of a better word, whitewashed." Totally disagree.
@Abstraction
Totally disagree.
Well you said you're not here to argue or convince so i guess we'll have to leave it at that 🤷♀️
redredred · M
Even if such a deity exists I still see no compelling reason to involve myself with this entity.
FreeSpirit1 · F
I wouldn't
GodSpeed63 · 61-69, M
His love for us.
@GodSpeed63
So you concede the conditional nature of god's love. You're free to love god for the reasons you gave but this is not an argument against his love being conditional.
Moving on.
Answer me this: If a husband loves his wife but beats her when he gets angry, is he worthy of love and respect from his wife?
So you concede the conditional nature of god's love. You're free to love god for the reasons you gave but this is not an argument against his love being conditional.
Moving on.
Answer me this: If a husband loves his wife but beats her when he gets angry, is he worthy of love and respect from his wife?
GodSpeed63 · 61-69, M
@GodSpeed63
lol you may be excused from the discussion since you've made it clear you're not interested in engaging in it in good faith.
Ta ta👋
No, you do
🙄lol you may be excused from the discussion since you've made it clear you're not interested in engaging in it in good faith.
Ta ta👋
Riverman2 · 56-60, M
What if you turn out to be wrong in your unbelief?
RedBaron · M
What's that a picture of?
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
I wouldn't. He seems to have the most fragile ego in the universe. Anytime anyone says something remotely bad about him in the Bible, he goes off. And I'm told by his devoted followers that if I don't return his alleged unconditional love, I'll be destroyed in the fires of hell.
reflectingmonkey · 51-55, M
@LordShadowfire its so weird that christians don't see that. I tried many times to explain to them that if any human were to act like the god of the bible does he would be perceived as the most evil man in history. the great flood ? Soddom and Gomorah ? and for what? they weren't living the way he wanted them to live.