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Will the Ostrich defense work?

While I probably would like to see Trump indicted and convicted somewhere for something more than most, I'm not optimistic. Here's one example of why that is:


Bill Barr seems to have captured Trump's relationship with objective facts perfectly:


“There was never an indication of interest in what the actual facts were,” Barr said.


Consequently, we're hearing an awful lot of talk about "willful blindness" or "deliberate ignorance" "jury instructions," but it's worth noting that even though a lot of such instructions might allow a jury to find Trump guilty, not all such formulations would.


For example, the 9th Circuit Pattern Instructions would appear to let Trump off the hook, even if he should have known, as long as he "actually believed" the election was stolen, or, really for that matter, anything else.




5.8 DELIBERATE IGNORANCE

You may find that the defendant acted knowingly if you find beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant:

1. was aware of a high probability that [e.g., drugs were in the defendant’s automobile], and

2. deliberately avoided learning the truth.

You may not find such knowledge, however, if you find that the defendant actually believed that [e.g. no drugs were in the defendant’s automobile], or if you find that the defendant was simply negligent, careless, or foolish.


This instruction, btw, seems to be way out 9th Circuit stuff, and there are plenty of instructions given and affirmed by other courts that would let a hypothetical jury convict, but I'm willing to bet that Garland and Willis are weighing the problem very carefully, and maybe also thinking about the implications for future prosecutions if Defendants can't be convicted if they "actually believe" in their own alternate facts.
TexChik · F
You would like to see Trump charged...What a joke. You libs know he is polling much higher than any democrat prospect and he hasnt even announced he is running or not. Your criminal demented pervert has no record to run on. His VP had no support from the party and was primaried out with the lowest amount of support for any lib candidate....so she's out. The only thing you have is to try and impeach Trump a third time, However this would be in an actual court of law and Trump's rights cant be trampled. Hoping to immerse Trump in a protracted and very public trial just to continually smear him isnt going to happen after the Charade of the Mueller "investigation".
TexChik · F
@MistyCee The only people above the law are criminal democrats. Hunter Biden, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi and her husband, Creepy Joe...

No I am saying America isn't going for another Guilty till proven innocent democrat spectacle. After the absolute fiasco the entire Russian collusion scam was, do you really think anyone cares that democrats just happened claim they have real evidence this time?

Trump's popularity is precisely why the libs are frantic to engage in completely bogus character assassination campaign because they cant possibly defeat him on the strength of their own character.
@TexChik

I think this is your best point here, even though I'm not agreeing it's "completely bogus."




Trump's popularity is precisely why the libs are frantic to engage in completely bogus character assassination campaign because they cant possibly defeat him on the strength of their own character.

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"When a president does something to get himself reelected and HE*believes that it is in the best interest of the country then it is not an impeachable act." Alan Dershowitz
(emphasis by me)
That precedent (IMO), emboldened trump's "Big Lie", "Guilty by accusation without proof"
monte3 · 70-79, M
What I find most disturbing is that none of these revelations, which had pretty much Been out there before in Woodward’s book and others, will change the trumpist’s loyalty and devotion to him Even that trump has scammed them. 🤷‍♂️
@monte3 That's kind of where we are, sadly.

America voted for Trump in 2016 with at least constructive knowledge of who he was and his support grew because he got away with the same sort of behavior as President as he did when he was a private citizen.

The disrespect for facts, the rule of law, honesty, and other human beings, or his "honesty" compared to the hypocrisy of others who claimed to adhere to moral standards and respect "liberal" institutions and ideas, were always at the root of his support.

I don't think those folks aren't going to abandon him because of yet one more liberal witch hunt against him, and there's a lot of money to be made off of him still.

Murdoch is still hedging his bets, and maybe parts of the GOP would rather have DeSantis or someone else a little less odious and obviously disinterested in the public welfare involved, but they're playing it smart and letting the Dems take their shot.
cycleman · 61-69, M
If America can not stand up and charge the boss of it's coup d'etat ....
Hypocrisy will be the main stay for years to come ...
cycleman · 61-69, M
@MistyCee If Trump is dismissed, the rest of the world should dismiss everything from America. It shows Americans Do Not stand up for what is Right.
@cycleman Its ironic, because part of Trump's appeal domestically is that America shouldn't stand up for what's right internationally, but should only look out for its own self interest.
TexChik · F
@cycleman Except the FBI said there was Coup, and that Trump was not involved. Didnt you libs go all in on the Russian collusion scam? Completely made up by Hillary . Obama and Hillary spied on Trump while he was preparing to enter office and then after. All felonies , no charges filed.
Really nice write up here that illustrates my point:

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/06/15/detached-from-reality-trump-jan-6-00039641
Thinkerbell · 41-45, F
@MistyCee

I didn't say Mueller ans Schiff could charge... I said they didn't provide the goods.

You really should read more carefully, including your own links.
LegendofPeza · 56-60, M
@MistyCee No matter what he said and continues to say , he knows it's all bullshit. He's simply following Rudy's election night strategy ; 'Just say we won.'
@Thinkerbell I did, and I think, in this case, there's a good chance the ostrich defense might prevent Garland from charging Trump, because, as you put it, he may not have the goods.
monte3 · 70-79, M
Wasn’t there some mafia boss that walked around in his bathrobe all day to pretend he was to crazy to be tried as he was running his operation. That is sort of trump claiming that he believes that he won, despite zero evidence, implying his motives were good. But even if you believe you deserve the money in a bank it is still illegal to rob it.
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monte3 · 70-79, M
@MistyCee 1/3 of trumpists or about 10% of the population, seems high but even at a 1/3 of that it’s scary. I am still fascinated that no information can shake the faith of a true believer. And that is how we have to look at the true trumpists, it is a religious faith separated from logic.
monte3 · 70-79, M
@MistyCee for what little it is worth I agree, there is going to be no conviction of trump and may not be worth it at any rate.
Thinkerbell · 41-45, F
We can be sure that Garland will follow the party line on what action to take regarding prosecutions.

The action judged to net Democrats the most votes this November.
They can't run on their disastrous record; they can only run against Trump.
@Thinkerbell You think that Garland will actually indict that quick, or just say "we're still working"?

Honestly, I'm not sure it would help the Democrats much in the midterms anyway, based on the polls.
Thinkerbell · 41-45, F
@MistyCee

Garland's window of opportunity is closing fast... if it gets too close to election time, his motives for prosecuting will be all too obvious.

I agree, probably nothing will help the Democrats much at this stage:
Bear market, 8.6% inflation rate, $5/gallon gas and an administration teeming with incompetents.

What if inflation hits 10% by November? 🙄
Maybe they'll try to cook the books.
Budwick · 70-79, M
So, bottom line - you don't like Trump for some reason, and you know the dems have nothing but fantasies to throw around the room.
@Budwick I'd say some, maybe too many Democrats, along with a couple of Republicans, and probably some independents have those fantasies.

But i'd also say jumping to that "bottom line" without even considering the implications of Trump's mental state/connection with "actual facts" is both a real problem in general as well as why it might be impossible to convict him with Trumpists on the jury.

Think about standard voir dire, essentially, if the evidence presented proves facts that would establish a crime as defined by the judge, could you convict. Could any Trumpist do that? Consider facts presented that conflict with Trump's alternate ones?
Budwick · 70-79, M
@MistyCee
But i'd also say jumping to that "bottom line" without even considering the implications of Trump's mental state/connection with "actual facts" is both a real problem in general as well as why it might be impossible to convict him with Trumpists on the jury.

What?

if the evidence presented proves facts

It does not.
@Budwick

It does not

Answering that a hypothetical like that should keep you off a jury for cause, and it's probably true for most Trump voters.

Did you really not understand the first part?
LegendofPeza · 56-60, M
How can you actually believe something that isn't actual ?
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@MarmeeMarch ok. I've no doubt his sociopathic dreams will live on, but the guy's not young, so I'm thinking it's not like the return of King Arthur, if that's what you're thinking.
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@MarmeeMarch I don't expect Biden to be around that long either. Both men might last 5 years, but I wouldn't expect either one to be in office in 10.

 
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