I Am Going to Say Something Controversial

There are two political utopian ideas that, despite their ignorance of human nature,are quite popular these days.

One is that of the libertarians/voluntarists: They think if state did not exist and there were no taxes, society would work better out of free will. Apparently, looking at what happens in the world every day is not enough to persuade them of the falsehood of their angelic view of human nature.

The other is that of the egalitarian/leftists: They think everyone should have the same outcome in life. Apparently, looking at what happens in the world every day is not enough to persuade them that we are not equal, but some are more intelligent, hard-working and virtuous than others.

I totally agree with the followers of these utopias founding their own countries and follow then there. Much better than spoiling the already existing ones with them.

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Mugin16 · 46-50, M

There are quite a few regions/areas in the world where the state does not exist - i.e. the government of that country is not able to control this area and to enforce its laws - and where the inhabitants of that region do not have to pay taxes (they might have to pay protection money instead). These regions include parts of Somalia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Mali, Burma, Libya, the Sinai peninsula in Egypt, and others. Strangely enough Western liberatarians and classical liberals have not started to emigrate to those areas in order to escape the state and taxes. Go figure.

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Mugin16 · 46-50, M

@Cierzo I am not aware of that. Do leftists from Spain really go to Venezuela? Even now with inflation running wild?

Cierzo · M

@Mugin16 Of course they do not. They love their paradies from the distance 😄

Mugin16 · 46-50, M

@Cierzo Have you forgot the word "should" in your previous reply then? :-)

That reminds of the Marxist academics who told and encouraged the leaders of independent Tanzania to create a socialist dictatorship but then stayed in the capitalist, democratic instead of moving to their (claimed) utopia. Hypocrites.

SatyrService · M

well to the first.. such a thing is not possible on a large scale,,
a consent based society will have to be made of people that believe others have the right to exist, unmolested. this CAN work, but usually onmly in very small groups like 150 or less.

the second kind, i think your characterization is inaccurate..
tradition left/liberalism does not require identical results, only identical access to resources, with a safty net to prevent disaster when failure occurs. what it requires like the example above is the greed on understanding to take part in that kind of system, there is alot of room in left thinking to adapt to various levels of state control or sponsorship. not all are soviet style dictatorships.. think of the US recovering from the great depression. ther was a lot of "socialism" that worked to repair the damage of the big money crash.

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SatyrService · M

@Cierzo so a left leaning economy can have some freedom in it,, and libertarian leaning economy can have some social nets like fire department and education.
america was once a good balance of these,, less so now

Cierzo · M

@SatyrService I would summarize it 'socialism for the basic needs, capitalism (true capitalism, not monopolies) for the rest.

SatyrService · M

@Cierzo i thik we agree! true fre markets have to be watched over that the most powerful do not take every thing. and a polupace free from hunger and safe is not likely to casue trouble, AND workers hat have no worry about basic needs are the mosst productive

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SatyrService · M

@Greenbare useful idea here in the law
Malum In se,, a thing bad in itself..
and
Malum In Legis, bad because we made a law that says so

@Greenbare is right on a government must work to prevent evildoing, yet allow the greatest leeway, for persons to choose for themselves how to live,

the challenge is tht often one person thinks another's choice id to be evil in itself..
like gender variants are seen bu some, as eveil in itself when it is only so because they made a rule about it

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SatyrService · M

@waleskinder what a narrow vision

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