Dear British People,

@Uncfred Should be pretty empty as they are all over here.

@billstickers You could be right, I work in construction and 50% are from Eastern Europe, which must tell us something. Its not for the love of being here, or of the English, and I feel sad for them.

@helenS They are lovely people, my neighbours are neighbours from heaven, they prove it time and time again.

@helenS I'd be glad to oblige

@JohnnyNoir Hmm... me, with a colonist? What would my posh friends think?

@helenS you could always claim you've retaken a part of the empire for your own purposes

@Longpatrol The owners of UK fishing rights sold them to European companies years ago, long before Brexit. And while fishing is locally very important in the UK it is just a rounding error in the national income and is not regarded as important by national politicians.

@helenS no😀

@billstickers 😳 😐

@EnchantedArtist2 " the misery continues
😬😬😬

@helenS I like your thinking. The lines we draw as boundaries on maps are just imaginary. Only nationalism turns them into physical borders. We're all descents of a tribe that walked out of East Africa 70,000 years ago so the idea to me of not allowing someone to move freely around the world is absurd.
Personally I would prefer no borders and total freedom but sadly our modern civilisation had created rich and poor, privileged and down trodden and unless we all actively address that we can't have that freedom.

@helenS I actually agree with your second paragraph. Unfortunately, in fact Parliament itself decided differently. Although legally the referendum was only consultative, almost everyone, on all sides, said it should be regarded as final and binding, and continued to say that long after the result. Indeed quite a lot of remainers continue to say it now, albeit in some cases with forked tongue. And I think it’s important that people should keep their promises.

I can assure you that the remain-voting minority has not been “silenced”. You should come and live in north London! 😉

@MartinII
"almost everyone, on all sides, said it should be regarded as final and binding
— I believe that's called "self–dwarfing" in English

"You should come and live in north London!
— Maybe I should, for a while... 😁

@fairefoutre you never learned much in 35 years...our fishing rights are 12 miles.....used to be 200 miles.....as long as uk allows? You have to do as you are told, why keep pretending , if we say jump, you say how high......

@Platinum

I think our Scottish friend consumed too many (red) herrings. 🤭

[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGP2oJnjyVw]

@Kwek00

I don't think the human rights watch complained about the deals made with Libya by the EU. The on-going deals ensure healthcare and living conditions were improved for refugees in lot of the countries. They have not stopped and were not off during the recent peak in immigration.

Perhaps what you're talking about specifically is what italy did, literally returning refugees to militia post Gadaffi rule, without ensuring they won't be abused and mistreated with the support of EU.

I personally believe that countries which muddle in foreign wars and affairs are the ones who should handle the refugee crisis. The EU as whole, no..France for instance should because they are partly responsible for crisis in Nigeria , Mali and other countries in the region most refugees come from.

Arab countries in the Gulf have the same amount of responsibility towards Yemenis, Syrians and Iraqis. why aren't they pressured by the EU to take refugees? Because they are allies in ignoring the problem and prioritizing their own personal interests. If they really care at all, they'd all stop funding militant groups and destabilize the territories in question.

@Miram I'm not talking "post-gadaffi". I don't have time for it now... but just look up what happened prior 2011. Like this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/01/eu-muammar-gaddafi-immigration
https://fpif.org/europes_dilemma_immigration_and_the_arab_spring/

You can find entries in the humans rights commity of the UN. I don't have the time now, but I'm pretty sure some of them were in my thesis that I wrote years ago.

Europe funded neighbouring countries in the hope that they would increase prosperity for it's citizens, make intstitutions more democractic, make trade relationships with them AND guard their borders in the form of keeping immigrants and refugees away. In a lot of those dictatorships (like Libya, seriously great example of this) these people were contained in horrific circumstances. It's one of those black stains that no one likes to talk about and that rarely gets it into the news.

That was the policy BEFORE the Arabic spring.

My argument is, that when those dictatorships started to destabelise or fall entirely... that migrants passed through these countries and into the EU. Gadaffi literally warned the EU that if they would support the rebels, that he would flood the EU with migrants (making them into a form of war-weapon-bargaining power) because he knew that he wouldn't have the means to contain them in a warzone annyway.


If the EU as a whole has a border policy (like shengen and the dublin agreements) then the EU as a whole is also responsibile on what they do to their borders. This idea that memberstates suddenly get a lot more say in their own borders after deciding as a group that borders are a "union" thing. Is the reason why we have all the mess that we have today. The moment Italy, Greece, Spain, hungary got pressured by migration because they are the first countries to reach, all the more "safe" spaces in the center of Europe suddenly wanted to regulate their own borders. You either do something as a whole or you don't do it at all, because if you make this ambiguous mess of who does what, then you create inn fighting and devision... which is pretty much what is going on. The "us" thing became a thing about "me" the moment "me" wasn't comfy annymore with an arangement that was super beneficial for them for a long time. All these deals are a combination of rights and responisbilities... and what we see is that everyone loves rights but no one feels responsibility when it's really nescessary.

@Kwek00

I don't see where the human rights watch was complaining about the deals per say at all. The deals were necessary then and are necessary today.

The article you provided speaking about Gadaffi states he was demanding funding for [i]sealing the crossing routes[/i]. Doesn't state anything about the way they've treated the illegal immigrants that attempted to cross except concerns. It's been the habit of european media to pain other leaders as much more cruel than they are to justify the ends of their own countries. This is why so called Arab dictators never receive a fair trial. The article also criticized Italy lack of process, again Italy.

Hearing the same countries that been plundering africa less than fifty years ago fund militants under the guise of democracy. And bohoo dictatorships, never mind that they literally used to rape women in NA, even kids and kill them along with elderly just while ago. But, alas, they have ideals now!!🤔 I hope you understand why I find this rather insulting. Ideals that lead nowhere but chaos in the countries in question.


I don't think Europe funded a lot of Arab countries and/or north african countries for that purpose at all.The countries that I am aware of being funded for that purpose are Libya, Nigeria down south and Turkey.
And you keep saying "dictatorships in neighboring countries". They all threaten to stop collaboration without money and they have every right to.

[quote]If the EU as a whole has a border policy.. then the EU as a whole is also responsibile on what they do to their borders.[/quote]

There are many variations in immigration policy within EU countries. No treaty state that there shouldn't be. The EU as whole cannot and will never adopt one policy because that's unrealistic.

Other than that, France (and others) don't get to run away from the consequences of its own games because the EU is supposed to save it. Because treaties. Same for Arab countries.

This is called moral responsibility and it's how it works. You do shit, you get shit.

[image deleted]@fairefoutre my old mate, it's not as easy as you think

@fairefoutre I know, I told you...but veto any law is not as easy as you think....we want our own laws...

@SW-User No what you say is completely wrong and misguided. Briefly, it is based on an archaic, simplified, primitive notion of what democracy is. This is the core of what's wrong with the "The people have spoken" ideology. I'll explain in detail later.

@helenS don't bother .. you've basically said that because I'm a millennial I don't know what I'm talking about

@SW-User No no this is not what I mean. Not at all. Nothing to do with you, your gender, your age group, your skin color or your shoe size. Please. Really. It's about a misconception of democracy that is shared by many people, and that goes back to Mr. Rousseau.

PS Please note that English is not my first language, and it is sometimes not easy for me to express myself clearly, in so difficult a matter.

@UnderStars I'd prefer if they dumped the whole idea today.

@helenS me too.

@UnderStars it's not really, once we leave we will continue to trade with the eu under art 24 where we can trade for up to ten years if needed, while we sort out a perminate deal and other trade deals around the world...

You definitely are a lesser breed@fairefoutre

@fairefoutre nope

[image deleted]@fairefoutre

Yer ok...hehe@fairefoutre

@Harriet03 three people would be happy...and those that watch...

@Platinum I think you miss the point!

I get your point, but it's not a good one...a lot of people want to leave and a lot of people want to remain...@Harriet03

@helenS @Burnley123 has insight into that. I do worry given the media coverage. However the Islamaphobia investigation into the Conservatives seems to get much less salacious coverage.
I also agree with @Burnley123 that disagreement with and campaigning against actions of the Israel government regarding Gaza, Jerusalem, the occupied West Bank etc should be seen as legitimate not as anti-samitic.

@SW-User User Burnley123 (a party member) and I have already discussed the issue.

@Abstraction Mmm....I have been talking to a certain Ukrainian but when I voted to leave i never thought for one minute I would be on the winning side.We should never have had the vote.The whole thing has been a mess and we have one party that
would cancel article 50,another that wants another vote in hope of overturning the result and the Tories who could be in power again in another hung Parliament unable to push through anything.
I am just fed up with the whole thing and want it over with -one way or the other.At the time of the vote neither side came up with any coherent arguments and I don’t really know why I voted leave other than that Cameron wanted us to stay.But if I had voted remain i don’t think I would have known why either.But if we end up staying then I fear for democracy because the majority of those who voted wanted us to leave -and it was promised the result would be implemented even though British Referendums are only advisory.

@Platinum I'm fully aware of the system. I've been a member of the electoral reform society for most of my adult life.

My point was that you can't take the result as a referendum replacement for the spilt I say above.

I don't deny the tory right to govern as they want (with the consent of Parliament) as would have been the case if the Lib Dems had won a majority of seats. Our out dated first past the post system gives a governing mandate to the minority and has done for pretty much every government since ww2

It's the system that we use and you can't complain when your side loses ...lib dems were a joke, she went from being PM to losing her seat and resigning....it was so obvious....@SW-User

@Platinum I'm not complaining this month. I've been complaining all my adult life as the system is inherently unrepresentative. I'd have moaned if Labour or Lib Dems won. The system is wrong IMHO.

@helenS Ignorant woman. It’s a victory for internationalism.

@fairefoutre You have no idea what it’s a victory for because you didn’t vote to leave.

@helenS I'll encourage that (as a party member :P )

🕊️

@helenS under the Lib Dems nothing will change. Jo Swinson wants to betray the referendum result and revoke Article 50. For someone who claims to be a Democrat that's hardly democratic. She should be called Jo Swindler

@DaySpider I wish you good luck. Although I'm afraid the first-past-the-post voting system will work against you good Lib Dem people. 😕

@helenS lmao I honestly thought you were gonna say you smell my ironing 😂😂

@EnchantedArtist2 point b was much more important 😂

@helenS That sounds like a Date 😎🌹😻

@LondonCowboy You may find me in Trastevere.

Glad I know where to look for you now then lovely Helen 😎😘@helenS

@fairefoutre

Bruce was more clever about choosing his English opponents, preferring to do battle with Edward II, Longshanks' incompetent son.

Was Edward II the one who was later deposed and murdered by shoving a red-hot poker up his rectum? A tour guide once told us about that happening to some English king, but I've forgotten which one. 😨

@helenS we were in the eu and paid them billions and we have decided to leave, which we are legally able to do ....we have not committed a crime or killed anyone...we will still be trading with the eu and also with other countries around the world, but we will be trading on our own terms...stop trying to make it something it is not....we will be giving them 33 billion for nothing, so we have not fallen out with anyone...

@helenS Thank you for that, that’s kind of you.

I certainly don’t deny that there is a xenophobic strand in the Brexit movement, and Farage sometimes gives voice to it. I haven’t heard anything comparable from Cummings, though he can sound slightly disturbing in other respects. As it happens he and his wife are neighbours of friends of ours, so maybe I’ll get a chance to meet him!

One feature of the debate in the UK, from some time in 2017, when remainers started to think they might have a chance of preventing Brexit, up until the calling of the election in November 2019, was that remainers tended to shout louder than leavers, and of course managed to put large numbers of people on the streets, which leavers never did. Their language was often extreme, occasionally offensive. The most objectionable example I encountered was a piece in The Spectator by Matthew Parris, in which he described leave voters (all 17.2 million of them!) as having “defective mental processes”. I certainly wouldn’t allow Parris in my house after that.

@MartinII Yes tensions were running high, and there were misconducts on both sides of the fence. But now that it's settled, I hope you good people will find a way to live with each other in peace and harmony. Good luck with that. I mean it.

@Platinum Hey, [u]you[/u] started this! 😁

We should kiss and make up. 😂@helenS

@helenS These pictures are showing people who want to leave and are pleased with the outcome. There are some more restrained 'happy leavers' who didn't feel the need to go so far as burning the EU flag.
I was referring to the 'remainers' earlier.

@SW-User the acceptable deal would on the main parts be as follows...no divorce payment as we have been paying them billions for three years with no say...control our borders and use the Australian point system...no more benefits paid until they have been here for four years and paying tax...regain our fishing rights..negotiate a good trade deal with the eu that is good for all of us...

@Platinum
First we can't negotiate the deal until we leave. That's a basic of article 50. You have to leave before you can negotiate to rejoin. So sorry but that can't happen.

I thought the 39 billion was to cover our budget commitments which is essentially 3 years worth of contributions so given the extensions and should be less now.

The immigration system will be ours to determine once fully left as will benefit rules. Although for asylum seekers I don't think existing treaties would allow what you want there.

Interesting you have no requirement over the Irish backstop which seemed to have been main reason original deal failed in the commons. I take it therefore you'd not be bothered to put a customs boarder in the Irish Sea so we maintain the commitment under the Belfast agreement?

We could make a deal in the transition period, but I think once we have left, I still think we will be trading under art 24 ...the I'm not bothered about the Irish border, there are many ways they can resolve that problem...there is hardly anything in the Belfast agreement about leaving the eu...the points I've listed are the ones that interest me...I never mentioned rejoining...they will change our laws once we leave...@SW-User

@SW-User where ever you look, the figures are different.....I'm talking the figure before the rebate which in 2018 was 20 billion, but then 4.5 billion was the rebate leaving 15.5 billion, but then the eu paid back another 2.5 billion, so to get accurate amounts is impossible......we will never agree on it being a lie..so we should agree to disagree....thanks for chat...

@fairefoutre we still have....the eu and the rest of the world...

@EnchantedArtist2 ikr?! 🤷‍♀️

@ArtieKat You know I have some very special fantasies... 😁
(But these do not belong here...)

@helenS Free from what?

@MartinII "Free" as in "freedom".

@SW-User At least, during my next vacations in the UK, I will save a lot of money compared to my pre-referendum visit in 2015, because I have the "Mickey Mouse currency" in my pocket! 😁

@helenS that's another reason we need to get Brexit done because Jean Claude Wanker says all member states must adopt the Mickey Mouse currency by 2021

@SW-User we had the permanent opt out like Denmark.

@4185philip Not so, as I have already pointed out. We joined the EC in 1973. There was a referendum (to use today’s language, “confirmatory”) in 1975. The EU came into existence in 1992, and we joined by government-negotiated treaty. The electorate was not consulted until 2016.

@MartinII
" The electorate was not consulted until 2016.

— No elections between 1975 and 2016?

@helenS On Europe, I meant. The only general election in which the Labour and Conservative parties took different positions on future membership of the EC/EU was 1983.

@SW-User I doubt that we will or can return so soon.

@InOtterWords my kids have (hopefully) 30 years over my 20 years left. We were in for 47 years, of it's a mistake with 20 we'd ask, with 30 maybe rejoin.

@fairefoutre

I never heard the term "shirt lifter" before.

I learn something new every day. 😄

Kilt lifters in Scotland ....😂😂@Thinkerbell

We shall see, our governments will decide what's fair and legal....you will need as much as you can get...it will be harder than you think on your own...@fairefoutre

@helenS Read what he actually said, which was that there was no need for such things to be covered in a free trade agreement because the UK would always choose to impose the highest standards anyway. And why do you remainers always quote from The Guardian?

@helenS we have left...no reason to still be under the eu laws...they will make a deal that is good for uk and good for eu...fishing may be the sticking point, but I believe they will find a compromise ....everyone playing hardball, but they still need each other....

@helenS They certainly won’t start agreeing with people who call them thick anytime soon.

@MartinII, @Nyloncapes: I did not know the meaning of "thick" in this context, I am sorry. I was unaware of its being offensive. If I had known, my reply would have been less friendly. It's of great importance to me to stay polite, and to respect everybody's opinion. 😐️

@helenS @helenS thank you , yes I am the same i respect other people's views and opinions, but some people can not and if you don't agree with them they get rude and insulting. People should debate about things in an adult way

@SW-User no but I read many automotive journals and figures differ but the 40% UK imports from Germany and France is a common denominator

@fairefoutre I don't pay much attention to Mark Carney and his 'project fear' forecasts .. he takes his advice from Christine Legard (head of the European Bank)

Remember his gloom and soon emergency budget prediction the day after the referendum? Yeah ok Mark were still waiting

@helenS I’m opposed to artificial and damaging institutions, such as the EU. And I’m opposed to entitiies which seem to have outlived their usefulness and to be contrary to the interests and wishes of many of their citizens, such as the UK.

@MartinII I fully get your point.My personal dream would a European Union of regions, not of countries, or "nation-states".

@SW-User Number of comments has increased by [u]more than 40[/u] during the last 50 minutes!
Their servers will explode soon! 😁

@helenS most popular "non body positivity" thread ever xxx

@SW-User Haha yes! 😄

@Platinum are you saying MP's are untrustworthy? Surely not 😂😂😂

I might be wrong, 😂 😂@SW-User

@SW-User @Platinum [image deleted]

@MrAverage1965 Thank you!

@helenS Well it’s not true. It is true that people were wondering which way Johnson would jump. It may even be true that he considered privately supporting Remain, though I doubt it. But he never supported Remain publicly. (All his family are rabid remainers. Make of that what you will.)

@MartinII Thank you for this valuable information.