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I Believe In Green Energy

I wanna talk about renewable energy for a second, specifically solar power. There's been a recent truism floating around about solar panels, claiming that they're not a viable option for producing electricity on a large scale because "they only operate at 18% efficiency." That statistic is true, but it's not the criticism people think it is. 18% efficiency is in actuality very high, but because most people don't know how "efficiency" is calculated when determining mass-energy equivalency, they think that it means solar panels are terribly ineffective.

Most methods of creating usable power involve converting mass into energy. All mass has energy (not all energy has mass though) and in order to harness that energy, you need to convert the mass. The three main ways of doing this are chemical reactions, nuclear reactions, and gravitational reactions. There's a fourth type, and that's antimatter, but we don't really talk about that as much because we haven't figured out how to harness the energy created by antimatter interactions, at least, not yet.

Any form of nonrenewable energy, including coal, oil, gasoline, petroleum, kerosene, propane, diesel, butane, and natural gas, are chemical reactions. And these reactions are so ridiculously bad at converting mass to energy that in my field of astronomy, we don't even count chemical reactions as a viable method of doing so. Chemical reactions convert [i]one billionth of one percent[/i] of the total mass involved in the reaction into energy. That means that fossil fuels operate at 0.000000001% efficiency. Suddenly, 18% doesn't seem like the abysmal data point that it did before.

So, why are solar panels so much more efficient? It's because there's no mass-energy conversion taking place. Light has no mass. Remember when I said that all mass possess energy but not all energy possesses mass? Light is an example of that. It has no mass. It does not take up space, it does not create a gravitational pull, it can pass through other sources of light without altering it. You couldn't, for example, fill a box with so much light that you couldn't fit any more inside. Wave-particle duality makes it clear that light IS carried by a particle, but like all force-carriers, it is a massless particle: the photon.

So solar panels don't require a method of converting mass to energy since light is already comprised solely of energy. All the solar panel has to do is harness it, and convert it into electricity. This process operates at about 18% efficiency, which means about 18% of all sunlight that contacts the panel over a set period of time is converted into usable power. It's extremely efficient, and does not produce emissions.

That being said, solar panels are expensive to produce and require the use of some substances which are difficult to obtain. So it's not perfect. But it's a hell of a lot better than chemical reactions like fossil fuels are.
Budwick · 70-79, M
That's an interesting twist!

I'm all for alternative energy sources. I'm just not willing to step backwards in lifestyle to promote energy sources that are not ready for prime time.

I want to see a solar powered 18 wheeler to distribute products across the country. We need wind powered airliners to carry people around the world. We need alternative energy to heat our homes, provide light and fuel for cooking - I'm even willing to pay a little more for it - but it's gotta work. The alternative energy folks are making progress - but they ain't there yet.
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
@basilfawlty89 And then there is that other branch of the left known as socialism. I know it doesn't get much play anymore, but it was prevalent at the time.
basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
@sarabee1995 Anarchism a d Marxism are both socialism. Socialism means worker ownership of the means of production. Social democracy is capitalism with state intervention.
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
@basilfawlty89 That's a very general and unnecessarily broad definition of socialism. Yes, socialism dictates the worker ownership of the means of production, but in its practical application in the last century, it has had far more specific definitions including that of the USSR and NAZI Germany and many others.
Did you hear about that company that's developing solar panels that cover the roadway? They're durable enough to drive on, have leds in them to display lines or other messages, and can provide enough heat to melt ice in the winter... all while providing electricity from a space that can still serve it's current purpose. Last I heard they were going to be starting out with a walkway along route 66 or something.
BlueMetalChick · 26-30, F
@SooperSarah Now that is fucking genius.
@BlueMetalChick I haven't heard much about it lately. I'm wondering if they ran into issues.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
A city not too far from where I am living shut down its solar farm. It cost $12,000,000.00 to build. It never worked as advertised. The area is quite sunny but the panels just never produced enough electricity to pay for themselves. Lack of storage is but one of the many problems with solar energy. The world doesn't stop when the sun goes down or a storm blows in.
BlueMetalChick · 26-30, F
@hippyjoe1955 "Unreliable solar"
Because apparently you can't count on the sun coming up every day.

Lemme guess, geothermal is also unreliable because we can't count on the Earth's core to be hot all the time?
basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
@BlueMetalChick you know better than to argue with this git
BlueMetalChick · 26-30, F
@basilfawlty89 You know better than to think I know better than to argue with anyone lol

Besides, it's like a site-wide pastime to watch me dunk on this guy. Someone even made a meme about it.
SW-User
I am an electrical engineer and have experience in solar and wind power. The generation of electricity is technically a form of energy conversion. Thus you have in steam plants a complex process of burning coal or oil or a nuclear reaction heating a boiler to make steam then running the steam through a turbine which produces rotational energy, which then turns the electrical generator. Each process is inefficient. In a gas turbine, a turbine like a jet engine is spun by the combustion products.
The reason engineers like these types of plants is that they have a lot of rotating masses with high inertia. This keeps the grid stable. Solar has no inertia, wind only has a little bit.
The real trick will be to get inertia out of these massless particles, or from nearly massless electrons.
CrustyDDingus · 36-40, M
I’d like to introduce you to hamster-wheel renewable-until-hamster-is-dead-energy. Except we’d genetically engineer bigger hamsters, but then we’d have another problem with big ass hamsters. So we’d also need big ass snakes to eat the hamsters 😏 pretty solid energy plan, right?
CrustyDDingus · 36-40, M
@OfflineFriend Zoe isn’t a human. She’s a pizza powered cyborg.
OfflineFriend · 22-25
@CrustyDDingus wouldn't it be candy instead of pizza ? 🤔
CrustyDDingus · 36-40, M
OfflineFriend · 22-25
Solar powers would work and sound like a good alternative , although in some places it would impossible to work
OfflineFriend · 22-25
@MethDozer yeah , let's build a dyson sphere
MethDozer · M
@OfflineFriend Let's build!
OfflineFriend · 22-25
@MethDozer yeah🙌
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
Almost all of the standard arguments against renewable energy are complete fucking nonsense that are just someone saying "I like fossil fuels and don't care about the climate" in various creative ways.

Like the people spouting 18% efficiency probably don't even know what that means or what that compares to. It just sounds low so they say it.
basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
@CountScrofula the tl;dr version really is "oil companies want money"
BlueMetalChick · 26-30, F
@CountScrofula Would it surprise you to hear that the first encounter I had with the 18% statistic was from a post made by Sandy?
ronisme1 · 61-69, M
Every house should have the panels here in Arizona but the mark up profits on them are ridiculous. And if you get them you have to sign over some of the control of your energy to the local electric company. I do not have them because of the price but could use them this week.
109 yesterday, 110 today, 112 tomorrow
SW-User
I learned something new today
Well I know some people on here that refuse to even try renewable energy. I think they want to destroy the world though.
akindheart · 61-69, F
Our utility company is promoting them. I might sign up.
lightningblue · 26-30, M
its all about where, california is a good place for it, or arizona, deserts
wind power is great where there's wind
same like hydro
its about diversity
BlueMetalChick · 26-30, F
@basilfawlty89 I WAS EVEN THINKING OF THAT WHEN I WROTE THIS 😂😂😂😂
OfflineFriend · 22-25
Solar power always remind me of dyson sphere
MethDozer · M
The thing about soar panels is they are just like nightclubs. It's all about location, location, location.
MethDozer · M
@BlueMetalChick Yeah, the biggest problem getting people to accept then is all the dumb asses employing them in bad ways just to get the money. Then they give shit returns and detractors take that as proof they are no good. That solar roadways quack idea is a a good example. The guys who convince people with no south facing roof and a tree line to put them on their house is another.


I've been using them for a few years at my camp. It took a lot of trial and error but once I got it right they been working well.
BlueMetalChick · 26-30, F
@MethDozer Profit margins always ruin it, don't they.
MethDozer · M
@BlueMetalChick That, and people's propensity to be enamored by what they perceive to be the "one solution". That's how we also got ethanol blends.

 
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