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CaptainCanadia · 41-45, M
Well if you crunch any numbers about the power structures of society you can clearly see women are at a disadvantage in nearly all ways. Men are disadvantaged in a few ways... but largely as a side-effect of oppression of women.
"Egalitarianism" is really about an 18th century liberal philosophy. But I get what you mean. I disagree because the empowerment of women may come at the expense of some power of men. Like... if women get equal representation in congress, some men are out of jobs, right? That loss of power is why MRAs exist - the rebalancing of society is going to alienate and upset some men. This is inevitable.
You can't make everyone happy here. It's about making everyone equal. Also, If eel the argument is a way to attack and discredit feminism. Feminism is not popular and doesn't have to be. It's necessary.
"Egalitarianism" is really about an 18th century liberal philosophy. But I get what you mean. I disagree because the empowerment of women may come at the expense of some power of men. Like... if women get equal representation in congress, some men are out of jobs, right? That loss of power is why MRAs exist - the rebalancing of society is going to alienate and upset some men. This is inevitable.
You can't make everyone happy here. It's about making everyone equal. Also, If eel the argument is a way to attack and discredit feminism. Feminism is not popular and doesn't have to be. It's necessary.
Are you kidding? First world women honestly have a ton of advantages over men. I hope you're not one of those people who think the wage gap is real. News flash, it's not.
CaptainCanadia · 41-45, M
I'm literally researching successful payouts for pay equity as I read this. I am going to a conference on Wednesday where I am going to talk about these payouts. Not only does the wage gap exist, I can find court cases that show payouts to women who were disadvantaged by it. The idea the wage gap doesn't exist is empirically wrong.
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@TyphoidJerry: For one it's illegal to pay women less, and if companies got away with paying women less then they would hire a lot more women, dontcha think?
The original study that claimed that women got 77 cents to everyone man's dollar was taken down. Also, the reason that there may be a gap between pay of men and women is because of (a) completely different jobs (the original study didn't specify if the men and women had the same job) (b) different levels of experience (c) different amounts of time working for the company (d) different work hours (men tend to work more than women), so on and so forth. There's far too many factors that go into any gap that may exist to so broadly claim that women get paid less than men simply because of their gender.
Women tend to take lower-paying jobs, they also aren't as comfortable negotiating their salary with bosses, and they tend to work less hours then men and take more vacation periods.
Instead of teaching women to consider themselves victims of everything, it would be far more helpful if you would actually encourage young girls to take jobs in S.T.E.M. fields and instill confidence in them so they can negotiate their pay with their bosses. Instead, you're encouraging women to complain about a non-existent gap. As a female, I'll heartily tell you that you're not helping in the slightest.
The original study that claimed that women got 77 cents to everyone man's dollar was taken down. Also, the reason that there may be a gap between pay of men and women is because of (a) completely different jobs (the original study didn't specify if the men and women had the same job) (b) different levels of experience (c) different amounts of time working for the company (d) different work hours (men tend to work more than women), so on and so forth. There's far too many factors that go into any gap that may exist to so broadly claim that women get paid less than men simply because of their gender.
Women tend to take lower-paying jobs, they also aren't as comfortable negotiating their salary with bosses, and they tend to work less hours then men and take more vacation periods.
Instead of teaching women to consider themselves victims of everything, it would be far more helpful if you would actually encourage young girls to take jobs in S.T.E.M. fields and instill confidence in them so they can negotiate their pay with their bosses. Instead, you're encouraging women to complain about a non-existent gap. As a female, I'll heartily tell you that you're not helping in the slightest.
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@danondorf: Aw, thank you.
CaptainCanadia · 41-45, M
@danondorf: Thanks for the concern on my wife, she's doing better. It's a long road, but it's going well :)
Well you can't force a quota on elected representatives anyways. But the idea here is that as more women run for office (and they are) eventually the numbers will change and represent the population. Right now, men dominate congress, and so men's voices and issues are more important. As there are fewer men, they'll be less important and we as a gender lose power. That loss of power is why MRAs are freaking out.
Well you can't force a quota on elected representatives anyways. But the idea here is that as more women run for office (and they are) eventually the numbers will change and represent the population. Right now, men dominate congress, and so men's voices and issues are more important. As there are fewer men, they'll be less important and we as a gender lose power. That loss of power is why MRAs are freaking out.
@TyphoidJerry: Oh man, I didn't know about your wife. Sorry to hear that. I second danondorf's comment. I wish you guys the best on your journey.
@TyphoidJerry: I still think Egalitarianism is better, partly because men have their struggles too. Sure, some MRA's are sexist, but a lot of them are fighting for things like proper sentencing for female statutory rapists and female rapists, equality in sentencing in general, equality in domestic violence cases and the court of law in general (men tend to always be seen as the perps, even if they are the victims), greater reparations if a man is falsely accused of sexual assault or rape, more support for male victims of rape, sexual assault and domestic violence, equality in child custody cases, so on and so forth. Feminism tends to ignore a lot of these problems. You can't fix the problems that both genders face when the name of your movement literally specifies what gender it favors. Also, in my opinion, discrimination against classes in society (especially economic ones) and even races are a greater issue than gender.
CaptainCanadia · 41-45, M
@Kindred: OKAY. And nobody is endorsing a victim mentality. This is about fighting, not complaining.
1. No company pays women less intentionally and it's VERY hard to prove if they do. The payouts I refer to required statistical analysis of large companies. The reasons are another long post entirely.
2. The 77 cent difference is just the arithmetic median salary by gender, nothing fancy there. And it is largely about the career women and men are in. If you correct for experience and job, the pay gap shrinks, but it is still present and statistically significant.
3. I absolutely agree, more women in STEM is required. And the first thing we should do is stop telling little girls they aren't good at math and science, and fight workplace sexism, which is a major problem in STEM fields.
We can disagree on the pay gap, but you actually seem to agree on methods and agree there is a problem. Women are under-represented in good-paying jobs and they need to be encouraged to get into these fields and the men stopping them need to step the fuck aside. That has nothing to do about victim hood. I work on this stuff because it's right, not because I want to pity women.
1. No company pays women less intentionally and it's VERY hard to prove if they do. The payouts I refer to required statistical analysis of large companies. The reasons are another long post entirely.
2. The 77 cent difference is just the arithmetic median salary by gender, nothing fancy there. And it is largely about the career women and men are in. If you correct for experience and job, the pay gap shrinks, but it is still present and statistically significant.
3. I absolutely agree, more women in STEM is required. And the first thing we should do is stop telling little girls they aren't good at math and science, and fight workplace sexism, which is a major problem in STEM fields.
We can disagree on the pay gap, but you actually seem to agree on methods and agree there is a problem. Women are under-represented in good-paying jobs and they need to be encouraged to get into these fields and the men stopping them need to step the fuck aside. That has nothing to do about victim hood. I work on this stuff because it's right, not because I want to pity women.
@TyphoidJerry:
1. If it's not intentional, then I don't understand your point? For it to be discrimination, it has to be intentional in some way. Maybe you meant something else, and worded it weirdly. Just because CEO Sarah accidentally printed the wrong number of zeroes on worker Sally's paycheck, doesn't make it sexism.
2. There's a lot more factors than experience and job.
3. I'm going into science, and as far as I can see, other than a couple of old croaks, there are no men standing in my, or other young girls' way. I think you're hallucinating.
1. If it's not intentional, then I don't understand your point? For it to be discrimination, it has to be intentional in some way. Maybe you meant something else, and worded it weirdly. Just because CEO Sarah accidentally printed the wrong number of zeroes on worker Sally's paycheck, doesn't make it sexism.
2. There's a lot more factors than experience and job.
3. I'm going into science, and as far as I can see, other than a couple of old croaks, there are no men standing in my, or other young girls' way. I think you're hallucinating.
CaptainCanadia · 41-45, M
@Kindred:
1. Unconscious biases, the way salaries are negotiated and bonuses are handed out, and a number of other factors lead to pay inequity. Women aren't paid less intentionally because as you said, it's illegal. But they tend to be paid less unintentionally as a result of various forces which are more than just the personality of evil bosses.
2. I know. What I mean is that you adjust for a million factors and still find a pay gap. Again - there are literal examples of women getting payouts from their employers because of these pay gaps.
3. Your personal experience may vary. If you're going into science you know one data point doesn't prove shit. There are tons of studies on sexism in STEM from childhood to late career. I'm glad you're not dealing with any sexism personally.
4. On MRAs - the ways in which men are disadvantaged are a result of our oppression of women. Men lose out on child custody battles because we think women should be raising children. Men go to war and die because we think women are too fragile and can't handle it. etc etc
1. Unconscious biases, the way salaries are negotiated and bonuses are handed out, and a number of other factors lead to pay inequity. Women aren't paid less intentionally because as you said, it's illegal. But they tend to be paid less unintentionally as a result of various forces which are more than just the personality of evil bosses.
2. I know. What I mean is that you adjust for a million factors and still find a pay gap. Again - there are literal examples of women getting payouts from their employers because of these pay gaps.
3. Your personal experience may vary. If you're going into science you know one data point doesn't prove shit. There are tons of studies on sexism in STEM from childhood to late career. I'm glad you're not dealing with any sexism personally.
4. On MRAs - the ways in which men are disadvantaged are a result of our oppression of women. Men lose out on child custody battles because we think women should be raising children. Men go to war and die because we think women are too fragile and can't handle it. etc etc
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CaptainCanadia · 41-45, M
@danondorf:
I'm with you on just letting people follow their hearts, the problem right now is that we discourage men from 'female' professions and women from 'male' professions. The imbalance is that there are far fewer female profession than there are male, and the female ones often pay less. People should be free to follow their dreams, and they aren't. Both genders suffer... but men tend to come out economically better from it.
And on the idea of loss of power, the individuals exist in a context. Power is about ideology and race and height and a million other things. But gender is one of them. And if say, 11 world leaders are female, and 131 are male, women are then at a disadvantage. As our society changes, men react badly to that.
Hell, look at video games and gamergate. The moment someone points out that chainmail bikinis are kind of sexist and designed for an assumed male audience when tons of women are nwo playing games, people [i]lose their fucking minds.[/i]
I'm with you on just letting people follow their hearts, the problem right now is that we discourage men from 'female' professions and women from 'male' professions. The imbalance is that there are far fewer female profession than there are male, and the female ones often pay less. People should be free to follow their dreams, and they aren't. Both genders suffer... but men tend to come out economically better from it.
And on the idea of loss of power, the individuals exist in a context. Power is about ideology and race and height and a million other things. But gender is one of them. And if say, 11 world leaders are female, and 131 are male, women are then at a disadvantage. As our society changes, men react badly to that.
Hell, look at video games and gamergate. The moment someone points out that chainmail bikinis are kind of sexist and designed for an assumed male audience when tons of women are nwo playing games, people [i]lose their fucking minds.[/i]
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@TyphoidJerry: Dan's right. Just because someone is a male doesn't make them bad at supporting women's rights, and just because someone is a female doesn't make them good at supporting women's rights.
@TyphoidJerry: I'm pro-Gamergate, by the way, so that example isn't going to work on me. Feminists just overreacted over a bunch of pixels wearing bikinis. Chill.
@TyphoidJerry:
1. That proves that the wage gap has nothing to do with sexism, then. Look at the factors I listed. That's why the gap exists. You just contradicted yourself.
2. So the employers corrected the issue which you've been claiming in bullet point one is [i]accidental.[/i] That sounds like the opposite of sexism to me. Sounds like they're willing to fix the problem, and from what you've been saying, even if they did get payouts through lawsuits, the gaps weren't intentional. Why are you contradicting yourself?
3. I think a lot of the stories of sexism you're citing are individual cases too. I'm Asian, many Asian-American women go into S.T.E.M. fields so I'm constantly surrounded by women in S.T.E.M. Currently, women in these fields are at an advantage when getting into college. They may face some dissent from some traditional-minded colleagues, but that's as far as the sexism goes. Sexism in S.T.E.M. is not institutionalized, it's just a couple of idiots who are sexist, which proves absolutely nothing other than the fact that idiots exist in this world.
4. You know what you're problem is? You yourself are painting women as helpless creatures who have no control over the decisions they make in their lives. So much so that you feel the need to act like a knight for them. You're being a hypocrite. That's what Feminism does too. It creates a sense of victim hood for all women. It weakens us and divides the sexes, when we have to be united to make progress. Anyway, a lot of MRA's support applying the draft to women or having no draft at all. Also, it's not just men that perpetuate the idea that females are better caretakers, it's oftentimes women who do this, so no, it's not right to blame men for the disadvantages they face in this society. I'm sure you'll find someway to blame male victims of rape for their own rape too. I don't understand why you can't accept the fact that women aren't at a drastic disadvantage in this western society. You step on your fellow men like they're doormats and call out against sexism and claim that you want women's voices to be heard, but when a female tells you an opposing opinion, you can't even accept it. The fact of the matter is, you're telling [i]me[/i] and [i]my[/i] gender that we're generally oppressed. That's simply not the case. Take it from someone who is currently living as a low-income, female of color. Someone who, according to you, should be most oppressed of all. With my life experiences and the experiences of my mother, relatives, friends, etc. I can tell you that income and race are more of a factor of discrimination in this country than gender will ever be.
Maybe you shouldn't valiantly defend something you don't have the life experience to comment on. You'll never truly comprehend a situation until you've lived it.
1. That proves that the wage gap has nothing to do with sexism, then. Look at the factors I listed. That's why the gap exists. You just contradicted yourself.
2. So the employers corrected the issue which you've been claiming in bullet point one is [i]accidental.[/i] That sounds like the opposite of sexism to me. Sounds like they're willing to fix the problem, and from what you've been saying, even if they did get payouts through lawsuits, the gaps weren't intentional. Why are you contradicting yourself?
3. I think a lot of the stories of sexism you're citing are individual cases too. I'm Asian, many Asian-American women go into S.T.E.M. fields so I'm constantly surrounded by women in S.T.E.M. Currently, women in these fields are at an advantage when getting into college. They may face some dissent from some traditional-minded colleagues, but that's as far as the sexism goes. Sexism in S.T.E.M. is not institutionalized, it's just a couple of idiots who are sexist, which proves absolutely nothing other than the fact that idiots exist in this world.
4. You know what you're problem is? You yourself are painting women as helpless creatures who have no control over the decisions they make in their lives. So much so that you feel the need to act like a knight for them. You're being a hypocrite. That's what Feminism does too. It creates a sense of victim hood for all women. It weakens us and divides the sexes, when we have to be united to make progress. Anyway, a lot of MRA's support applying the draft to women or having no draft at all. Also, it's not just men that perpetuate the idea that females are better caretakers, it's oftentimes women who do this, so no, it's not right to blame men for the disadvantages they face in this society. I'm sure you'll find someway to blame male victims of rape for their own rape too. I don't understand why you can't accept the fact that women aren't at a drastic disadvantage in this western society. You step on your fellow men like they're doormats and call out against sexism and claim that you want women's voices to be heard, but when a female tells you an opposing opinion, you can't even accept it. The fact of the matter is, you're telling [i]me[/i] and [i]my[/i] gender that we're generally oppressed. That's simply not the case. Take it from someone who is currently living as a low-income, female of color. Someone who, according to you, should be most oppressed of all. With my life experiences and the experiences of my mother, relatives, friends, etc. I can tell you that income and race are more of a factor of discrimination in this country than gender will ever be.
Maybe you shouldn't valiantly defend something you don't have the life experience to comment on. You'll never truly comprehend a situation until you've lived it.
@TyphoidJerry: Just to clarify, the last couple of lines of the second to last paragraph are why I support Egalitarianism. Currently, economic classes and race divide us more than gender does. Women are pretty much equal in western society, and sometimes even privileged in certain sectors, especially in law. It's really time that we focus on what this country (I'm talking about the U.S.A.) really needs to focus on, taking care of our poor, knocking the rich down a few pegs, knocking Fortune 500 companies off of the throne they hold in our government, and tackling racial issues. Complaining about pixel babes should be the last thing on that list.
CaptainCanadia · 41-45, M
1&2 - An employer who is inactive on issues of equity will perpetuate the wage gap. So you can not be intentionally sexist, and yet still disadvantage women. You have to understand inequity and purposefully watch for and enact policies to tackle inequity. If [i]every employer in the country[/i] has a wage gap 'by accident' you then have a systemic issue that should be addressed as such.
3 - "Sexism in S.T.E.M. is not institutionalized, it's just a couple of idiots who are sexist, which proves absolutely nothing other than the fact that idiots exist in this world."
If you find those couple of idiots in every class and workplace, and as a result fewer women in aggregate get engaged in STEM or find greater difficulty in succeeding in STEM than men, there is a system, institutional problem.
You need to stop thinking about individual cases and start thinking about the big data. If the same problem shows up everywhere, then it's not a localized issue.
4 - This is a classic anti-feminist argument. "If you recognize you're being screwed over, that's weakness." Fuck that. The feminists I learned from are self-actualized ass kickers who have done very well in life, thank you very much. They are not whiners, weak, or anything of the sort. They recognize they're being fucked, and fight back because of it. You are grossly and insultingly misunderstanding some amazing people.
I don't "step on my fellow men like doormats". Once again you're making the same error - you're talking about the individual and not the aggregate. I don't spend my time attacking men (I'll call out individuals who say or do something appalling), I'm talking about patriarchy, the system that empowers men over women.
And again, let me underline this, there is empirical, statistical, verifiable evidence that men do better than women in a vast variety of ways. The ways in which women do better than men are limited and very specific. This information is overwhelming and that's JUST the quantitative stuff. If you don't believe it exists because you emotionally disagree with it, good luck with your career in science.
5 - And as for video games, it's one of the most powerful industries on the planet. People spend entire lives playing games. They matter, and saying "it's just some pixels" dismissively doesn't change that fact. But if you're pro-gg... well fuck, there's not much we can talk about here. If you think that video games aren't sexist then you don't even know what sexism is. Also, if video games don't matter, why have a position on gamergate?
I think we've beat on each other enough here. Thanks for the talk.
3 - "Sexism in S.T.E.M. is not institutionalized, it's just a couple of idiots who are sexist, which proves absolutely nothing other than the fact that idiots exist in this world."
If you find those couple of idiots in every class and workplace, and as a result fewer women in aggregate get engaged in STEM or find greater difficulty in succeeding in STEM than men, there is a system, institutional problem.
You need to stop thinking about individual cases and start thinking about the big data. If the same problem shows up everywhere, then it's not a localized issue.
4 - This is a classic anti-feminist argument. "If you recognize you're being screwed over, that's weakness." Fuck that. The feminists I learned from are self-actualized ass kickers who have done very well in life, thank you very much. They are not whiners, weak, or anything of the sort. They recognize they're being fucked, and fight back because of it. You are grossly and insultingly misunderstanding some amazing people.
I don't "step on my fellow men like doormats". Once again you're making the same error - you're talking about the individual and not the aggregate. I don't spend my time attacking men (I'll call out individuals who say or do something appalling), I'm talking about patriarchy, the system that empowers men over women.
And again, let me underline this, there is empirical, statistical, verifiable evidence that men do better than women in a vast variety of ways. The ways in which women do better than men are limited and very specific. This information is overwhelming and that's JUST the quantitative stuff. If you don't believe it exists because you emotionally disagree with it, good luck with your career in science.
5 - And as for video games, it's one of the most powerful industries on the planet. People spend entire lives playing games. They matter, and saying "it's just some pixels" dismissively doesn't change that fact. But if you're pro-gg... well fuck, there's not much we can talk about here. If you think that video games aren't sexist then you don't even know what sexism is. Also, if video games don't matter, why have a position on gamergate?
I think we've beat on each other enough here. Thanks for the talk.
@TyphoidJerry: I'm not invested in this argument enough to go data-mining for it, because I'm not against all Feminists, just extremists. I just personally think that Egalitarianism which encompasses more issues than Feminism does is logically better, but, you failed to address the main points in my argument which are:
1. "You know what you're problem is? You yourself are painting women as helpless creatures who have no control over the decisions they make in their lives. So much so that you feel the need to act like a knight for them. You're being a hypocrite."
I didn't say that women recognizing they're being screwed over is a weakness at all. I said that you feeling the need to argue with women on how oppressed women are is ridiculous. Like I said: "Maybe you shouldn't valiantly defend something you don't have the life experience to comment on. You'll never truly comprehend a situation until you've lived it." Data is only part of the scientific process. Data can be wrong, and guess what? Data can be skewed to support your side. Nothing is truly unbiased. For example, they used to have data that proved that African-Americans were biologically inferior to white people, overtime we have realized that this data is flawed.
2. "Just to clarify, the last couple of lines of the second to last paragraph are why I support Egalitarianism. Currently, economic classes and race divide us more than gender does. Women are pretty much equal in western society, and sometimes even privileged in certain sectors, especially in law. It's really time that we focus on what this country (I'm talking about the U.S.A.) really needs to focus on, taking care of our poor, knocking the rich down a few pegs, knocking Fortune 500 companies off of the throne they hold in our government, and tackling racial issues. Complaining about pixel babes should be the last thing on that list."
I felt the need to copy and paste the entire comment since you ignored it (maybe not intentionally, though). This second point is my final argument on why I'm against Feminism. Everyone, every single person in this world is disadvantaged in some way, shape or form. Yes, a white, heterosexual male is capable of being disadvantaged regardless of how much you seem to think otherwise. Feminism is mainly focused on female gender issues. There's so many more important things in this world, including that, that we need to focus on, and the great thing about Egalitarianism is that it encompasses all people, not just one, whiny group.
I'm done debating as well. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. You have a nice day, sir. It was interesting talking with you, because you're actually an intellectual and it's hard to find intellectuals on the internet nowadays.
1. "You know what you're problem is? You yourself are painting women as helpless creatures who have no control over the decisions they make in their lives. So much so that you feel the need to act like a knight for them. You're being a hypocrite."
I didn't say that women recognizing they're being screwed over is a weakness at all. I said that you feeling the need to argue with women on how oppressed women are is ridiculous. Like I said: "Maybe you shouldn't valiantly defend something you don't have the life experience to comment on. You'll never truly comprehend a situation until you've lived it." Data is only part of the scientific process. Data can be wrong, and guess what? Data can be skewed to support your side. Nothing is truly unbiased. For example, they used to have data that proved that African-Americans were biologically inferior to white people, overtime we have realized that this data is flawed.
2. "Just to clarify, the last couple of lines of the second to last paragraph are why I support Egalitarianism. Currently, economic classes and race divide us more than gender does. Women are pretty much equal in western society, and sometimes even privileged in certain sectors, especially in law. It's really time that we focus on what this country (I'm talking about the U.S.A.) really needs to focus on, taking care of our poor, knocking the rich down a few pegs, knocking Fortune 500 companies off of the throne they hold in our government, and tackling racial issues. Complaining about pixel babes should be the last thing on that list."
I felt the need to copy and paste the entire comment since you ignored it (maybe not intentionally, though). This second point is my final argument on why I'm against Feminism. Everyone, every single person in this world is disadvantaged in some way, shape or form. Yes, a white, heterosexual male is capable of being disadvantaged regardless of how much you seem to think otherwise. Feminism is mainly focused on female gender issues. There's so many more important things in this world, including that, that we need to focus on, and the great thing about Egalitarianism is that it encompasses all people, not just one, whiny group.
I'm done debating as well. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. You have a nice day, sir. It was interesting talking with you, because you're actually an intellectual and it's hard to find intellectuals on the internet nowadays.
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