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Egalitarianism vs feminism vs men's rights movement. Which one is most useful to society?

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Which society?
danondorf · 22-25, M
I agree with ya :)
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danondorf · 22-25, M
@JessicaK: I think I know what you mean by your first question, tho. In Saudi arabia it's the women who are more disadvantaged so therefore it'd make more sense to focus on them more. However i'd still say even for societies like that, egalitarianism still addresses all those needs.
Egalitarianism by far. Feminism is downright sexist and pretty much pointless except in certain third world countries, the men's rights movement has its flaws as well, including over-exaggeration.
CaptainCanadia · 36-40, M
Well if you crunch any numbers about the power structures of society you can clearly see women are at a disadvantage in nearly all ways. Men are disadvantaged in a few ways... but largely as a side-effect of oppression of women.

"Egalitarianism" is really about an 18th century liberal philosophy. But I get what you mean. I disagree because the empowerment of women may come at the expense of some power of men. Like... if women get equal representation in congress, some men are out of jobs, right? That loss of power is why MRAs exist - the rebalancing of society is going to alienate and upset some men. This is inevitable.

You can't make everyone happy here. It's about making everyone equal. Also, If eel the argument is a way to attack and discredit feminism. Feminism is not popular and doesn't have to be. It's necessary.
CaptainCanadia · 36-40, M
1&2 - An employer who is inactive on issues of equity will perpetuate the wage gap. So you can not be intentionally sexist, and yet still disadvantage women. You have to understand inequity and purposefully watch for and enact policies to tackle inequity. If [i]every employer in the country[/i] has a wage gap 'by accident' you then have a systemic issue that should be addressed as such.

3 - "Sexism in S.T.E.M. is not institutionalized, it's just a couple of idiots who are sexist, which proves absolutely nothing other than the fact that idiots exist in this world."

If you find those couple of idiots in every class and workplace, and as a result fewer women in aggregate get engaged in STEM or find greater difficulty in succeeding in STEM than men, there is a system, institutional problem.

You need to stop thinking about individual cases and start thinking about the big data. If the same problem shows up everywhere, then it's not a localized issue.

4 - This is a classic anti-feminist argument. "If you recognize you're being screwed over, that's weakness." Fuck that. The feminists I learned from are self-actualized ass kickers who have done very well in life, thank you very much. They are not whiners, weak, or anything of the sort. They recognize they're being fucked, and fight back because of it. You are grossly and insultingly misunderstanding some amazing people.

I don't "step on my fellow men like doormats". Once again you're making the same error - you're talking about the individual and not the aggregate. I don't spend my time attacking men (I'll call out individuals who say or do something appalling), I'm talking about patriarchy, the system that empowers men over women.

And again, let me underline this, there is empirical, statistical, verifiable evidence that men do better than women in a vast variety of ways. The ways in which women do better than men are limited and very specific. This information is overwhelming and that's JUST the quantitative stuff. If you don't believe it exists because you emotionally disagree with it, good luck with your career in science.

5 - And as for video games, it's one of the most powerful industries on the planet. People spend entire lives playing games. They matter, and saying "it's just some pixels" dismissively doesn't change that fact. But if you're pro-gg... well fuck, there's not much we can talk about here. If you think that video games aren't sexist then you don't even know what sexism is. Also, if video games don't matter, why have a position on gamergate?

I think we've beat on each other enough here. Thanks for the talk.
@TyphoidJerry: I'm not invested in this argument enough to go data-mining for it, because I'm not against all Feminists, just extremists. I just personally think that Egalitarianism which encompasses more issues than Feminism does is logically better, but, you failed to address the main points in my argument which are:

1. "You know what you're problem is? You yourself are painting women as helpless creatures who have no control over the decisions they make in their lives. So much so that you feel the need to act like a knight for them. You're being a hypocrite."

I didn't say that women recognizing they're being screwed over is a weakness at all. I said that you feeling the need to argue with women on how oppressed women are is ridiculous. Like I said: "Maybe you shouldn't valiantly defend something you don't have the life experience to comment on. You'll never truly comprehend a situation until you've lived it." Data is only part of the scientific process. Data can be wrong, and guess what? Data can be skewed to support your side. Nothing is truly unbiased. For example, they used to have data that proved that African-Americans were biologically inferior to white people, overtime we have realized that this data is flawed.

2. "Just to clarify, the last couple of lines of the second to last paragraph are why I support Egalitarianism. Currently, economic classes and race divide us more than gender does. Women are pretty much equal in western society, and sometimes even privileged in certain sectors, especially in law. It's really time that we focus on what this country (I'm talking about the U.S.A.) really needs to focus on, taking care of our poor, knocking the rich down a few pegs, knocking Fortune 500 companies off of the throne they hold in our government, and tackling racial issues. Complaining about pixel babes should be the last thing on that list."

I felt the need to copy and paste the entire comment since you ignored it (maybe not intentionally, though). This second point is my final argument on why I'm against Feminism. Everyone, every single person in this world is disadvantaged in some way, shape or form. Yes, a white, heterosexual male is capable of being disadvantaged regardless of how much you seem to think otherwise. Feminism is mainly focused on female gender issues. There's so many more important things in this world, including that, that we need to focus on, and the great thing about Egalitarianism is that it encompasses all people, not just one, whiny group.

I'm done debating as well. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. You have a nice day, sir. It was interesting talking with you, because you're actually an intellectual and it's hard to find intellectuals on the internet nowadays.
danondorf · 22-25, M
@Kindred: I feel like I could write an entire book as a response to Jerry; The thing I latched onto that I'd like to respond to is his accusation of "unconscious bias". Women are paid less because of decisions they make and how they negotiate. If those negotiations are affected by some deep unconscious bias (and as a psychology nerd the thing I realized the most is that so little is known about the study of psychology almost all statements about the unconscious save obvious ones are still hypothesis) then taking action against that would be total authoritarianism. If women and men have biases that influence their decisions differently, then trying to solve that by legislation is literally being a thought police. Freedom is superior. That being said I don't think there is an unconscious bias that results in chicks getting paid less (at least not on the dudes side) if anything I'd imagine the way women are collectively unconsciously viewed would cause us to pay them even more due to our perception of them being weak. If a woman and a man make the same exact decisions, they will get paid the same amount. having a problem with that makes you on the side of unfairness.

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