Who thinks of "other than Christianity" when you think Spirituality and Religion [Spirituality & Religion]
I identified myself and belief as Christian for many years; majority of my life so far. I started off in life as an intuitive humanist. I went through "the dark night of the soul" and identified myself as an "ex-christian", yet not quite an agnostic or atheist. God's existence did not come into question. The Holiness of His Holiness the Christ, Jesus, has not come into question. I found a deep understanding of the bigness of God in the Baha'i Faith. And it has perfectly satisfied both the Spirituality and Religion that I now believe, in balance and truth, is TRUE.
What do YOU think of when you think of "Spirituality" and "Religion", how similar or difference are they in your perspective? How important is "what you believe" or is it important that you are learning, growing and maturing in your faith, whatever it is, and that it is OK for others to not believe as you do???
No proselytizing, no "my faith is better", just a question as to WHAT'S UP for you?????? Sending LOVE, Ms A
[quote]What do YOU think of when you think of "Spirituality" and "Religion", how similar or difference are they in your perspective? [/quote]
Spirituality is a feeling [i](to some kind of higher understanding)[/i] Religion is a structure, where people worship [i](or have a bond/relationship)[/i] with some kind of higher power [i](represented by a deity or an object)[/i].
You can experience a spiritual moment, but you don't have to make a religion out of it.
[quote]How important is "what you believe" or is it important that you are learning, growing and maturing in your faith, whatever it is, and that it is OK for others to not believe as you do???[/quote]
It's important because it influences descision making. That's why you need to learn to be critical about believes, which by itself is a tough thing to do. Some presupposition are difficult to diffrenciate from the group of things that you know from gathering knowledge and the group of things that you have picked up and just took for granted/truth [i](without thinking about it first)[/i]. That's the struggle when you are trying to figure things out. I think it's better to not embrace things that you have [i]NO[/i] knowledge about, rid yourself of "faith" as much as possible, and try to evaluate life and circumstances with knowledge that you can measure and deduce to get a so good as possible basis for evaluation.
What others do is their business, as long as they don't take their wacky presuppositions to the voting booth or push it into a place of power where it starts interfering with other peoples life. But that's again... a struggle.
@Kwek00 I side barred an observation that trolls may agitate and provoke and want to cause trouble, but imho they do not read or understand what they are arguing against. I don't mind the opportunity to look at their train of thought/feeling, but I used it to challenge myself as I don't bother correcting others, I just shake my head and move on.
@MsAlaineEYes A troll doesn't argue. They just want to get an emotional reaction that they can feel jolly about. They just revel in negative attention. ... so it's better to move on if you figured out someone is a troll. The more negative attention you give them, the more they'll come back. Hence: "Don't feed the troll", let them suffer their loneliness and lack of attention by themselves.
I started out as a Christian, fell away from the faith partly due to wanting to explore other things and partly due to what I perceived as hypocrisy of much of the perceived leadership of the church. As I matured and did my own research I came to the conclusion that my relationship with God it just that, my relationship, it isn't up to the opinion of anyone else what I should believe. To me being "spiritual" without committing to God is like trying to join an army that has no general to lead them. One of the most interesting things I have ever read regarding religion wasn't from the bible, it was a story about a boy and his grandfather, they were talking about why grandpa didn't go to church with grandma, the boy was concerned that it terribly frustrated his grandma and questioned why he didn't go to church to make her happy. After careful thought, grandpa responded, "The spheres really do have their music, but it isn't up to another man to tell me how I have to listen." That is how I feel about it. I don't care what religion you belong to I believe there will be a little of everything in Heaven. It is the heart that is judged, not the denomination.
@Roadsterrider I started out as a Christian, fell away from the faith partly due to wanting to explore other things and [b]partly due to [u]what I perceived as hypocrisy of much of the perceived leadership[/u] of the church. [/b] I get that...for me, it was that I realized that "what I did" as a worship leader, was "leading others" astray in ways. It's really deep and hard to explain but it was more than giving Glory to God, I felt that I was worshipped in ways and I said NO.
As I matured and did my own research I came to the conclusion that [b]my relationship with God it just that, my relationship, it isn't up to the opinion of anyone else what I should believe. [/b] That's what I think it takes from us; maturity and research and a "certitude" that what we believe, what core beliefs we should to base our actions upon, are up to us.
[b]To me being "spiritual" without committing to God is like trying to join an army that has no general to lead them. [/b] I am questioning this, not because I think it is wrong, but because it is too easily agreed with. Can a person be "spiritual" but be an A THEIST...having no personal or identifiable image or being? I have to question.
One of the most interesting things I have ever read regarding religion wasn't from the bible, it was a story about a boy and his grandfather, they were talking about why grandpa didn't go to church with grandma, the boy was concerned that it terribly frustrated his grandma and [u]questioned why he didn't go to church to make her happy[/u]. After careful thought, grandpa responded, [b]"The spheres really do have their music, but it isn't up to another man to tell me how I have to listen." [/b] I love the wisdom, love and honesty in this story. My father, an atheist, went to church to hear me sing when I was younger and later, to appease my religious sister. If we ACT upon the faith of another, to appease them, I see that as no different than being trauma abused/stockholm syndrome. The one thing that we are given in this life, is freedom to choose. When we lose that, what true hope do we have whether we are spiritual OR religious? Thanks for your comments... please share more if you like.
@MsAlaineEYes About being spiritual without being a believer in a particular deity, as a Christian, the rules I live by come from God. For a Muslim, they come from Allah, without that framework, there are no rules except what an individual thinks is right. I don't see "being spiritual" as having a direction. Having a belief system is part of everyone, some of us choose to believe in a higher power and that there is some plan for this world and us and some choose to believe there is nothing else, this is it.
I don't think your dad was experiencing Stockholm Syndrome, I would guess that he as a father knew that singing was important to you and he wanted to see you sing. As for going later with your sister, she wanted to share her experience with him and he agreed to go. My wife loves to go to casinos, I have tinnitus and hate the noise at the casino, but I still go with her because she likes it.
@Roadsterrider I agree, Spirituality can be exercised/observed/create focus for one's life without religion (the rules and structure with a Deity). I have seen in "[b]having to have a believe system[/b]" something of a crutch and shelter from the storm/a refuge from learning more about ourselves. [b]When we take religion away, who are we???[/b]
Oh, no, I didn't mean to say that I thought my Dad, rest his precious soul, was a victim of Stockholm syndrome (I meant to say "others" in religion, many I have met, many who have broken ties with me because I am not longer "the kind of christian they are". sorry)...
No, I meant to say that my Dad went to church and said a prayer OUT OF LOVE for us, mainly for my dear Baptist sister. We were more important that him expressing atheism. He loved us. I was the only one who had the talk about religion with us. He said unapologetically, that he didn't believe in God...and I kept asking questions and he answered but to my knowledge, I was the one who found my Dad. I found HIM and didn't have to label him as being "saved" to feel ok with his passing. Mom had passed first Sept 2011. I did not get a chance to ask him how he felt about her passing. He looked to be at peace.
He came to church to hear me sing before I went to my first short terms missions trip in France. I didn't feel that he went "to church" then. Exactly. He was a giver in ways that I didn't see while he was still alive with us. I miss him more for his honesty and love. He past Dec. 2012.
Another comment: You said: [quote]as a Christian, the rules I live by come from God. For a Muslim, they come from Allah, without that framework, there are no rules except what an individual thinks is right.[/quote]
Respectfully, I had to chuckle for two reasons, I once believed that God and Allah were separate entities, even as an agnostic for a short while, I learned that there is ONLY ONE GOD, called by different names, different "rules" as you call them and I have since learned that they are mostly ALL the SAME. No disrespect to His Holiness the Christ, Jesus...my Savior and my Friend...I love Him more everyday; much more than when I was a Christian. I guess to love someone we must KNOW them...
Also, I had to chuckle with the thought that "what a person thinks is right becomes a rule for them". I understand what you mean, but when analyzed it may look more like a spectrum. One end is [b]hedonism, pure egocentric thinking [/b](and I can testify to how my ex husband, father to my son, abusive narcissist, is on this end of the spectrum, and claims to be a christian) and living and the other is [b]selflessness (yes, I believe that A Theists can be selfless and serve mankind [/b](and thus serve God, aha, lol) better than those of any certain faith. Maybe the presumption that we tend to want RULES in our lives, someone to tell us what is right and wrong and what is the most noble, most generous, most loving and merciful way to live (among hundreds of other attributes that most faiths attribute to God)
I can referred to God, as "God"... or for me, ([b][big]Yá Bahá'u'l-Abhá![/big][/b]---Persian for the Greatest Name...means The Gloriest of ALL Glories!!!-Baha'i faith
I hope you are enjoying our conversation. I wouldn't mind starting some more with holy writings from Christianity, Islam, Baha'i, Buddhism (which is a philosophy and some psychology) Zoroastrianism and Hinduism...I might do that because I would love to discuss one writing, small, at a time and see how we see that from our different perspectives. Namaste, Ms A
I've been an atheist for a while, but lately I've been starting to think I could use some worship in my life. I looked to Paganism for a little while, but for me it's just too much reading and ritual and shit. So I decided I'm gonna worship the Sun and call it a day.
@BlueVeins Your comment is awfully interesting. I guess I'd like to ask you to give me an idea of what it feel to "could use some worship in my life"? Maybe it will help you identify WHAT you are looking for. I know that I missed fellowship; a sense of belonging but if you are looking for "intimacy" with the Divine, you might find as I did, it lacking in the "church", just my opinion. Let us know if that works out for you.
@MsAlaineEYes I somewhat want a sense fellowship, but I think what I really want out of it is a sense of something to live for and yeah, the whole intimacy with the divine. I dunno, I feel like I'd rather be alone than with any of the major religions that currently exist.
[i]What if a responder thinks their faith is better? [/i] @Adstar WHO DOESN'T "Think their faith is better?", or "lack of faith". We are all permitted to believe what we want to believe and act upon it, or not, in the same way. [big][b]This post is not about "my faith is better than your faith",[/b] that would be such an immature conversation, wouldn't it?[b] [/big] Do you think your faith is BETTER? Good for you!!! Yes, you are invited to respond to the question. You are not restricted to speak of what you think of spirituality and religion, if it is working for you, GREAT.
[i]They are invited to respond with what they think and then they are told they are restricted and cannot say what they think if their thoughts don't conform to the Dictatorial limitations imposed by the OP[/i]
[b]The only dictatorial limitation seems to be coming from you.[/b] In Psychology, the study of the human mind, there is a term called[b] "projection".[/b] You projected YOUR attitude while blaming me therefore you do not feel like an infidel or fallen subject of your religion. I'm beginning to feel that you are 1) a troll 2) a young person with limited understanding 3) of a faith that has not permitted you to think for yourself. [b]Which one are you?[/b]
[i]Therefore the OP is not genuinely interested in what people think[/i] You read minds ??? upon being narrow minded, judgmental and arrogant? You are amazing! You want to proselytize and I have asked that NO proselytizing be done, [b]don't like it? MOVE ON.[/b] It's TRUE, [b]I am NOT genuinely interested in hearing more proselytizing [/b] and [b]I do not care, if you are of that mindset, to hear what YOU think.[/b] [b][big]I like to converse with those with faith who are seeking, still learning, not arrogant, proud or put themselves above others. I love the A Theists. They are truly the only ones, imho, who have the BALLS to think for themselves and say so unapologetically, I have much more respect for them than a person who would respond in this post as you did.[/big][/b] [b]Next?[/b] This is my ONLY response to you Adstar...Converse if you can.
@MsAlaineEYes I see how you start thrashing about and laying down accusations when your exposed as a hypocrite.. Best form of defense is attack hey??
Oh and people who think for themselves are limited by their imperfect minds.. That's why they end up atheists or following religions that conform to what THEY THINK God should be.. In the end imperfect people like this are only following what they think is right and in that they are actually declaring themselves their own god..
[b]copy of my UNREAD reply: [/b] The only dictatorial limitation seems to be coming from you. In Psychology, the study of the human mind, there is a term called [b]"projection".[/b] You projected YOUR attitude while blaming me therefore you do not feel like an infidel or fallen subject of your religion. [b] Projection, [/b]definitely. It's amazing how after I have endured this massive projection by my abusive, christian, exhusband that I won't tolerate it and [b]easily SEE THE INANE ATTEMPT to silence me.[/b] Well, it doesn't work that way. My silence is their reply.
I believe in letting an abuser's "abuse" linger in the air like the spray of a skunk on the highway. It just hangs there. Says nothing. Means nothing and is a momentary annoyance before you MOVE ON. 😜🤪🤣😂🦨💭🥱
I'm glad so many people have [u]found[/u] their God. I can only speak for myself - I'm in search of God. It may be a life-long search. Not sure whether I'll ever find Him (Her?). It's the searching that counts, in my opinion.
@helenS My heart beats for the thinker, the dreamer, the poet/poetess, the artist, the seeker of truth, whatever that may truly be and I LOVE QUOTES. Hope you enjoy them.
@MsAlaineEYes That is an interesting perspective although i think you are equating Greek and Roman views of the gods through a very creative and kind of overstated lens of neo platonism which itself is not that simple. And even within Greek polytheists past and present many did not and still do not agree with the cosmology of neo platonism which is also where the early Christian church got alot of their ideas too. Neo platonism is where Christians got the metric that a "true" god had to be all powerful and all knowing for example. I bring this up because I know at least one Hellenist would would take issue with your statement. :)
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Sorry, no offence meant; that is why I decided to start this thread, to see how people perceive other faiths. What we think about spirituality and religion and "chat" about it. I know very little about Greek and Roman Mythologies and NeoPlatoism (New Platonic thought I assume, I have not studied religions) and only studied Hellenistic thought and art in Culture Class in Uni. I'm a big picture person. I see patterns and symbols and their meanings figurately as well as literally. I enjoy the personification of Human Virtues and Divine Attributes in other religions.
I just don't get the elephants...lol I haven't been to India...and if the Cow is sacred, why don't they have a cow deity??? Just asking.
@MsAlaineEYes Understood. Just pointing out that polytheistic traditions have their own distinct "denominations" that have different ideas about things. And in Norse mythology there is both big picture stuff and less grandiose and universal aspects to it. I think the biggest issue alot of people have with neo platonic ideas is it is a framework for imposing one's cosmology on others as is the case with modern Christianity. That is also where the idea of "lesser gods" being demons or spirits. To those with different ideas it can be seen as offensive.
As for elephants that is easy. Ganesh is the remover of obstacles. Nothing more effective at that than a massive Indian elephant.
@AFreeThinker81 I think its hard, it was for me, to "leave community" and the faith that I had embraced for so long, then have to deal with friends who then withdraw from me, yet say they love everyone; Everyone but someone who is no longer "like them". I think its awesome that you KNOW that you have the right to FREELY think. I believe that the Spirit world exists, but I also KNOW that there are many who do not "feel" it and experience it. My father was an atheist. Was until he died and "went no where and just stopped existing" and he was GOOD with it, no matter his whole family became christians. He even "prayed the prayer" so they we wouldn't fear that he was doomed to hell...shaking my head. I admire him more; almost 9 years after his passing, because he was true to himself and he was honest about it and not allowing anyone to pressure him into trying to accept something that he didn't believe existed. I appreciate your comments; please feel free to share more.
@TheOneyouwerewarnedabout I knew a homeless man, John MacDonald...may his soul rest in peace...he believed that THIS was hell and any God who would demand perfection here, was a masochist. I'd like to write his book "This ain't Heaven". I get it. But we can FEAR that without believing it. To fear is the new "I know" and it's so off base. WHY do you believe that we are all going to hell? Curious. Free to speak, go ahead.
@MsAlaineEYes this isn’t life. We’re all cattle. Getting herded from corral to corral. Freedoms just a word.. if you dont work or get hand outs you die.. is that what it’s meant to be?
@TheOneyouwerewarnedabout If it is, I'm fighting that all the way home. Don't we all create our realities, like the Matrix, to fit into what we can accept? Who can live with the fact "we're all cattle", not saying that is not true, I believe there there are people, societies that views societies and individuals as cattle. It sickens me. But I don't have to "BE" one of them. If we don't work, how do we live? Get hand outs? That only, as we have seen, makes us into more cattle, for the slaughter. imho.
When I see 'spiritually' I think of new age wierd stuff. For religion I think of people trying to find God by works. Christianity is the exact opposite
@TheWildEcho I can see that. What is "new age weird stuff", you mean that REALLY OLD goth and age old mystic stuff? I often wondered how that got labeled as "new age". lol. I think of bad religion definitely a performance/cult community.
@TheBlackPowerRanger don't got preachers in the Baha'i Faith. Dizzy Gillespie, jazz great was a Baha'i brother. Unity of "races" (just different skin color; all ONE race, the Human Race). UNITY and Service to Humankind, World Peace, Equality of Race, Gender, Education of children and Economical Equity (wealth) are areas of service and teaching.
@ImperialAerosolKidFromEP No trolling anyone. I assume that it's happened before and I am of the impression that we are "maturing" as a society and are becoming more able to get past ourselves, listen whole heartedly and think more freely while respecting others...we can learn. We can love.
@MsAlaineEYes I think our society has had all the maturity it's going to get and is due to decline. However this [i]very[/i] young civilization we call the Internet has turned adults into a lot of childish brats!
@ImperialAerosolKidFromEP Interesting view and I wouldn't disagree with it but I have HOPE that we, if not making great strides, are inching our way in the right direction. With one SW member on this thread, your comment abou the [quote]Internet has turned adults into a lot of childish brats![/quote] seems to fit, I think we call them TROLLS here...childish banter, blah blah blah...maybe they will "not get want they want", attention and just GO AWAY. Just like a bratty kid. In spite of this example, I still believe that our society, our world has some hope. The Internet will confirm or deny that progress dependent upon the individual's use of it and purpose.
I hope to spread THINKING, critical thinking and how we can increase our ability to analyze things that are emotionally charged with THOUGHT and REASON and to BE KIND and THOUGHTFUL to others.
@CopperCicada Thanks for the post; very enlightening and enlightened share...
[b] This limitation of language is something contemplatives have had to face, and something well explored in philosophy. [/b] That's a term we don't hear enough of, imho, "contemplatives". Like the unstructured prayer in the Friends' Church (Quaker religion), my faith has that unstructured but reading of written prayers that are so beautiful. The "setting aside of language" for me is freeing while others, unaccustomed to is, may feel intimidated or uncomfortable with the freedom and "soaking" aspect of this practice. My favorite Contemplative in history is Madame Jeanne Guyon; I love her writings on Prayer and Communication with God, that was a departure from the Catholic church in the 1600s in France.http://womenofchristianity.com/biography-of-madame-guyon/
[b]I don't mix visions and dreams, but [u]I find something useful and beneficial for me in each. [/u][/b] I understand and am able to glean from many, drink from more than one cup. God is big. We don't have to worry about "offending" him by seeking, worshipping or living our lives as we think that He has given us to live.
LOTS in your comment...please feel free to add more if you like. THANK YOU. Ms A
@CopperCicada [quote]I find it important to get beyond words to experience in spirituality because we are talking about things that really transcend words.[/quote]
Thank you for a refreshing, thoughtful response, I found myself smiling at your ease and understanding... It reminded me of a part of the Jewish Kaddish "beyond all blessings and hymns, praises and songs that are uttered in the world"... The UNKNOWABLE...
