Is the god of the bible a moral being? [Spirituality & Religion]

@TheMidwesternWayToValhalla [quote]Any god that kills a human is not worthy of roraise or recognition[/quote]

You better start with Planned Parenthood then they kill thousands of humans every day.

God didn't create us to kill us.

@GodSpeed63 planned parenthood isn’t a god. And the Christian god to me is just a temper tantrum throwing murderer. Supposedly all knowing but couldn’t foresee that humans would fall victim to a talking snake. Right in the beginning he screwed up.

That or he has the murderous creativity as Josef Mengele.

@TheMidwesternWayToValhalla There you are wrong. The plan of salvation was not a last minute idea for God, but existed since long before there was a human on earth at all. Of course God knew well in advance the risk He was taking by giving His creatures free will.

@TheMidwesternWayToValhalla BiblicalWarrior is right for as far as my knowledge of the bible goes tough. I don't think the argument you made is valid.

I also wonder why people play into the game of theology if they haven't really read up on it? The bible is only right, if the bible is proven valid. That the claims surrounding it hold up. I think there are historical researchers that have discovered a lot of proof, that the dataset (and how it got created) is way more problematic. Within the story itself (even tough you need to take some strange leaps at times) it holds up a lot better then you might think according the books I read about it. (look up: Jack Miles - God: A Biography, Jesus: A Crisis in the life of God ; Francesca Stavrakopoulou)

@BiblicalWarrior [quote]Of course God knew well in advance the risk He was taking by giving His creatures free will.[/quote]
"Risk" implies your god couldn't be sure either way. The would mean it wasn't omniscient as is claimed. You can't have it both ways. Either it set Eve up to fail or it isn't all it's cracked up to be. Which is it?

@Sharon [quote]Either it set Eve up to fail or it isn't all it's cracked up to be. Which is it?[/quote]

Neither. Eve wasn't set up at all. She consumed the knowledge of good and evil on her own just like Adam did. They new better than that but they screwed it up any way. God had a plan even before He made Adam and Eve to redeem mankind after they made a mess of things.

@GodSpeed63 Do you agree or disagree with the idea that "eating the apple" in the story belongs to Gods' plan? That's pretty much the question.

@Kwek00 [quote]Where's your evidence? Post it here for us all to see.[/quote]

Nobody knows for sure what shape the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was in. I disagree that God planned for Adam and Eve to screw up in the Garden of Eden.

@GodSpeed63 I don't know where that quote comes from. When I'm talking about the bible, I'll just take the bible as evidence and what theologians wrote about the bible.

But I'm verry aware that schools in biblical thought consider Adam and Eve messing up as parts of Gods plan. Not all theological streams believe that everything that happens happens according to Gods Will. But I think (and please correct me on this) that most (the majority) schools of thought that study the bible believe that everything happens accordings to Gods' will and nothing happens outside it.

I know at leat 2 authors from the top of my head (one is a linguist the other a theologeon from the Greek Orthodox community) that consider (from the text) that God wanted Eve and Adam to eat the apple. That being cast out of the garden was part of the plan.

The sources that I can give are:

Jack Miles: God a Biography (who is a linguist, and tackles diffrent theological sources in his book to give foundation to this argument)

And St. John Chrysostom from the Greek Orthodox Church in his work "The Devil and Magic"

@Kwek00 [quote]And St. John Chrysostom from the Greek Orthodox Church in his work "The Devil and Magic"[/quote]

That's very interesting, thank you for sharing that. I'd like to read it some time.
About God's plans for humanity, His original plan was to shower His love on us and allow us to show our love for Him on Him and on each other. Let me ask you something, what does it mean to be made in the image of God and His likeness?

@GodSpeed63 If you lived closer by... you could have my copy.
I'm pretty sure you can find it online, if you go to Greece it's found in pretty much every bookstore that sells greek orthodox stuff.

I'm not a theologian, and my knowledge of faith (judeo, christia, muslim, hindu, ...) is limited to what I've read. I'm also not religious, so theological questions are far from my cup of tea. For me (how I look at this) people that are religious use a basic dataset (a holy text) see this as "truth", and build a society/movement around it. Since I'm intrested in human beings (that's my cup of tea) it would incredibly ignorant of me in not trying to understand why people think the way they do and neglecting reading up on "holy" texts at times.

So if you want a good answer to your question, then I just can't give it to you. Because I don't believe in the idea that we were created in Gods' image. So to me it means verry little.

If you ask me my personal idea, and I move myself into the religious sphere and try to figure it out from a religious stand point. Then God created us in his image, meaning that "humanity" and "God" have the same thraits and problems. If you go look at the chapters of the "old testament" and you look at how God thinks and does stuff, you also see that the character "matures". That as He goes along, he learns stuff, creates rules for himself, etc. It's like going from some kind of infancy to a more maturity. But the character itself (just like the humans in the story) are still bound to the subjective morality of the writer. The morality that was "casual" or "normal" in those times (when these chapters were written) are reflected in the characters that they write about. But again, that's my personal opinion and it's not something I would ever use in a serious discussion. I only answer the question because you asked me what I answer would be.

@Kwek00 Not all theological streams believe that everything that happens happens according to Gods Will. But I think (and please correct me on this) that most (the majority) schools of thought that study the bible believe that everything happens accordings to Gods' will and nothing happens outside it. First of all, in accordance with your request, allow me to correct you. If all things happen according to God's will, and nothing happens that is not His will, then that would mean that sin and death are part of God's will as well, which would mean that sin is, by extrapolation, not sin, and therefore death is meant to exist as well, both of which contradict the Bible.

@BiblicalWarrior That's absolutely correct (what you said about sin, I think you forgot about the "quotes".

Which is also something certain theologians wrestle with, and which makes the story so fascinating if you look at it from that way. (Which is also a part of what Jack Miles' sources argue and why Jack is also fascinated by this part).

If you look at the behavior of the God character. He also ends by casting Adam and Eve out of the garden. He's pretty furious too. He curses Eve first and then curses Adam. But when they both need to go, he seems to take pitty on them. And he makes them clothes so they don't have to go out there undressed.

I mean... and I never EVER said annything diffrent.
The characters in the story may make some strange descisions at times.
The bible (as a story) has value, and it's not a bad story. You can criticise the content (which I do too) but I think most of it (there are some chapters that are pretty "meh") make up for some really good story telling.

@GodSpeed63 And another thing.

You should really dive into Miles too.
Yes, he's not a religious person
Yes, he writes critically
Yes, he makes jokes here and there.

BUT and I think this a big but in this context

He takes his work really seriously.
He makes an annalysis of the charachter of God (only God, nothing else) true the entire story of the bible. He uses a huge amount of source material from historians and theologians. He delves deep into the translations (as in words and messages that get distorted because we translate stuff). And I've read critical revieuws from religious persons that don't like the criticism (as can be expected) but also praise Miles for his work by also doing the leggwork in theology that is needed to create a book that has some kind of "balance" between the two worlds. It's not a mockery of the character, he uses the biblical text, and gives diffrent evaluation that he found in delving into religion.

Ofcourse, his sources are limited, because our time is limited. And not everyone read every source. But Miles is still embraced and criticised by both sides. Either by giving the God character to much slack in certain parts OR by being to critical in others. But I think if you are religious or non-religious that it's still a good book and gives you an isight in certain theological questions.

@Kwek00 [quote]You should really dive into Miles too.[/quote]

Thank you for your suggestion. I will look him up.