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Is the god of the bible a moral being? [Spirituality & Religion]

Syllogism time:

Killing a baby is always immoral no matter who does it or for what reason.
God killed many, many babies in the flood.
Therefore god is immoral.

Thoughts?
I find the god in the Bible to be equivalent to a temper tantrum throwing toddler not worthy of recognition
@Qwerty14

...yeah but...you don't.
Or at least you can't seem to demonstrate that you do.🤷🏻
@Pikachu you can't even understand that I do. If ignorance is bliss you must be ecstatic haha praise be to Allah my friend. Go with Buddha!
@Qwerty14

I'm seeing more "haha" than argumentation...
That's fine then
We'll just chalk this up to a failure to communicate🙂
BiblicalWarrior · 51-55, M
(@ Qwerty14)
The Roman Catholic Church is by far the largest and wealthiest of all the so-called “Christian Denominations.” It has consistently claimed to be the only true Church – the Church which was founded by Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry. In addition, especially in this generation, it has embellished its image and attracted and held members by the claim that it is the one Church which has never changed, All of these claims are false. However, in recent years, the Roman Catholic Church has done a complete about-face, actually boasting of the many changes it has instituted to meet the changing needs of Catholics and non-Catholics alike in this modern age.

Is the Roman Catholic Church the one true Church? Are its past and present teachings and practices Scriptural? How has the Roman Catholic Church changed through the centuries? How much has it changed in our lifetime? Have these changes been basic or superficial? Where is the Roman Catholic Church headed?

The purpose of this article is to turn the spotlight of truth upon Roman Catholicism both as to its past history and present teachings. Our sincere desire is to be of help to Catholics, many of whom are well aware that, in recent years, their church has been Instituting many changes, most of which have left them confused, uncertain, and deeply troubled. For the first time in their lives, many Catholics are raising serious questions about their Church, its leaders, its teachings and its practices. They now realize that their church is not united but divided over issues such as birth control, abortion, divorce, celibacy for priests, women clergy, gay clergy, Papal infallibility, prayer, worship, music, purgatory, confession and even the meaning of the Mass. The moral degeneracy and financial scandals which have rocked the Charismatic movement have also been exposed in the Roman Catholic Church, all the way from the Vatican to the local parish. Confusion reigns supreme and Catholics who take their religion seriously don’t know which way to turn.

A source of further confusion for many is the fact that for centuries Roman Catholics were taught that all those outside its membership were heretics to be shunned, persecuted or even killed. It was not until the middle of this century that the Roman Catholic Church modified and softened its stand by first calling non-Catholics, “separated brethren.” More recently, even that negative connotation has been eliminated so that today, Catholics are to consider “all Christians” to be “brothers and sisters in Christ.”

However, these changed outward attitudes on the part of Roman Catholics toward non-Catholics, and their increasing usage of evangelical terminology, has unfortunately resulted in many evangelicals mistakenly believing that the basic false doctrines and heresies of Romanism have changed, something that simply is not true. Thus, both Catholics and non-Catholics alike should take a fresh look at Biblical, historical and current look at this largest supposedly Christian denomination in the world. If it is the one true Church as it claims to be, then every believer in Christ should become a part of it. But, if it is and always has been a false church, then all who truly believe the Bible and trust Jesus Christ as Saviour will separate from it, warn about it, and urge others to do likewise.

Through our extensive radio and literature ministries, it has been a great blessing to hear from many former Roman Catholics who have been delivered from the bondage of the false doctrines of Romanism; who have experienced the new birth by faith in Jesus Christ alone; and who are doing their best to reach their Catholic loved ones and friends with the Word of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. At the same time, it has been a real heartache to realize that so many non Roman Catholics who profess to know Christ as Saviour, have been deceived by the new attitudes and vocabulary of Catholicism so that the Roman Catholic Church is now being accepted by many evangelicals as a sister church with only minor differences rather than the false church which it actually is.

The Truth About the Roman Catholic Church is that it always has been and continues to be a false church. Those Biblical doctrines it professes to believe and teach are vitiated by Roman Catholic dogma based upon tradition which contradicts God’s holy, infallible Word, the Bible. Error is never more deceptive than when it is presented with a veneer of truth. Throughout its entire history, Roman Catholic leaders fit the description of the false teachers who God warned in advance would come on the scene in the last days deceiving many by their “feigned’ (pretended or hypocritical) words their “great swelling words of vanity, ” as described in 1 Peter 2:1-3, 18, 19,

Before examining and refuting some of the well known false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, it is essential to understand that two basic false teachings of Roman Catholicism (even apart from its many other errors), clearly classify it as a religious cult rather than a true church. These two basic errors are:

Firstly, Roman Catholicism, although teaching that the Bible is the Word of God, adds the spurious apocryphal books to the Scriptures, and also elevates church tradition and the edicts of popes and councils (the words of men), to the same or an even greater level of authority than the Word of God. This amounts to adding to the Word of God, thereby placing Roman Catholicism under God’s curse. Deut. 4:2; Rev. 22:18, 19.

Secondly, Roman Catholicism, although teaching that faith in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation, actually denies the truth of the Gospel by adding sacraments, good works, and purgatory as additional requirements for forgiveness of sin and eternal life. This amounts to the preaching of a false Gospel which places the Roman Catholic Church under God’s curse. Gal. 1:6-10.

Thus, by Scriptural standards, the Roman Catholic Church is a false church which can only expect God’s judgment, not a true church which can claim God’s blessing. No amount of outward change should be permitted to obscure this fact.

As for the claims of the Roman Catholic Church that its history can be traced back to Jesus Christ, Peter, or the other apostles, such claims lack both historical and Scriptural support. The true Church of Jesus Christ was not founded upon Peter, but upon Peter’s confession of Christ’s deity as recorded in Matthew 16:16: “.. Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. ” Peter was not the first pope nor is there any Scriptural justification whatever for such an office. Peter’s own inspired testimony as to his position and ministry is given in I Peter 5:1-4. He further identifies himself in 2 Peter 1:1 as “a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ….’ History confirms the fact that there were no popes in the early church nor even in the Roman Catholic Church during the first centuries of its existence.

Furthermore, the long-held claim that the Roman Catholic Church was the only church which never changed is not supported by church history not even Roman Catholic history. How sad to realize that this false claim influenced so many to join or to stay in this false church which actually is the product of centuries of changes. Most of these changes came as a result of yielding to heathen customs and practices which were subsequently incorporated into Roman Catholic teachings and worship. The following is a partial list of heathen, unscriptural practices which became a part of Roman Catholic dogma over a period of seventeen centuries. Some of the dates given are approximate. In many cases, these heresies were even debated for years before being given the status of required beliefs:

300 AD Prayers for the dead
300 AD Making the sign of the cross
375 AD Veneration of angels & dead saints
375 AD Use of images in worship
394 AD The Mass as a daily celebration
431 AD Exaltation of Mary with term “Mother of God” applied at Council of Ephesus
526 AD Extreme Unction (Last Rites)
593 AD Doctrine of Purgatory – Gregory
600 AD Prayers to Mary & dead saints
786 AD Worship of cross, images & relics
995 AD Canonization of dead saints
1079 AD Celibacy of priesthood
1090 AD The Rosary
1190 AD Indulgences
1215 AD Transubstantiation – Innocent III
1215 AD Auricular Confession of sins to a priest
1220 AD Adoration of the wafer (Host)
1414 AD Cup forbidden to the people at communion
1439 AD Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma
1439 AD The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed
1545 AD Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent
1546 AD Apocryphal books added to Bible
1854 AD Immaculate Conception of Mary
1870 AD Infallibility of pope in matters of faith and morals claimed by Vatican Council
1950 AD Assumption of Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven after her death)
1965 AD Mary proclaimed Mother of the Church

Although some of the preceding Roman Catholic heresies are now being questioned by many, both inside and outside the church, none have been officially repudiated and all continue to be practiced by millions of Catholics around the world. The urgent need today is for Roman Catholics; yes, and all who claim to be Christians, to examine their own beliefs and the teachings of their churches by the only sure standard – the Bible. Whatever contradicts, adds to or subtracts from the sixty-six books of the Old and the New Testaments, is error no matter how many may cling to it.

Roman Catholics who read the Bible will soon discover that many Catholic teachings and practices are specifically forbidden by Jesus Christ Himself. Note carefully the following warnings given by the Lord Jesus Christ to the religious leaders of His day concerning vain worship, vain tradition and vain repetitions. All of these are particularly applicable to Roman Catholicism today. Vain worship: In Matthew 15:8-9, Jesus said, ‘This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the command men of men.” All worship is indeed vain when it is based upon the commandments of men rather than the Word of God. Vain tradition: In Matthew 15:6b, Jesus said, ‘Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. ”

[Note: Valid tradition is based upon Scripture and confirms it. Vain tradition is based upon man’s teachings and violates it. In Roman Catholicism, tradition is consistently elevated above the Scripture which results in vain worship (no matter how sincere) and makes the commandment of God of no effect – a very serious matter.]

Vain Repetition: In Matthew 6:7, Jesus said, “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.” A basic part of Roman Catholic worship is the frequent repetition of The Rosary whose origin is clearly tied to heathen religions such as Hinduism, Islam, and Buddhism. Roman Catholics should listen to the words of Christ forbidding vain repetitions, rather than using the vain repetitions of Catholicism.

During the past forty years, at least three important trends in the Roman Catholic Church are clearly observable. These are: (1) A greater emphasis upon the place of Mary. (2) A major emphasis upon ecumenical activities with a view to seeking the full visible unity of all religions. (3) The acceptance of the so-called Charismatic renewal within the Church with new emphasis upon the claimed “ministry of the Holy Spirit.” There is every reason to believe that all of these major trends will continue and increase; and, all of them are very deceptive, very dangerous, very unscriptural.

The place accorded Mary in the Roman Catholic Church is not Scriptural nor is it new, but it cannot be denied that, during the last one hundred years, veneration of Mary has dramatically increased, Note in the historical chart given earlier in this article that the exaltation of Mary and the term, Mother of God, became official Catholic dogma in 431 A.D.). with prayers to her proclaimed in 600 A.D. But, note also that the “Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mat)@” was not proclaimed until 1854; her “Assumption” not until 1950; and her title “Mother of the Church” not until as recently as 1965.

Some Roman Catholic observers believe it may not be much longer until Mary is officially proclaimed “Co-redemptrix with Christ.” In fact, the premier issue of a new Roman Catholic publication, Catholic Heritage (Vol. 1, No. 1, Sept-Oct 1991) has the front page title: “Mary, Mother of the Church,” and, in a Question and Answer column, the question is asked, “At the foot of the cross, Mary shared in the mystery of the passion. True or False? Answer: True. Mary united her sorrows to those of hey Son. The sorrowful and immaculate heart of Mary bled with her Son for all of mankind. For this reason, we invoke her under the title of Co-redemptrix.”

All of the popes during the past thirty years have done their part to increase the influence of Mary in the Roman Catholic Church based completely on tradition rather than upon the Bible. In the August 28, 1975 issue of the official Vaticannewspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, Pope Paul VI, speaking of the ceremony celebrated the day before in St. Peter’s in honor of the Madonna at the Feast of the Assumption of Mary said, “Her venerated image, known as Salus Populi Romani’ was carried in procession from St. Mary Major’s as part of the Holy Year ceremonies, so that the overflow crowd of pilgrims, coming from all parts of the world, could see it and thus increase their devotion to her. In this way we should all be reminded of the meaning and practice of the cult of Mary, inseparable from the unique and central cult of Christ …Let us pray to her with humble, trusting and childlike faith.”

Did you know that the present pope, John Paul II, has dedicated himself completely to Mary? In 1985, during his visit to Vancouver, B.C., the special souvenir edition of B. C. Catholic carried a full I page color photo of the pope under the caption, Totus Tuus which, in Latin, means” all yours. “The following explanation was given, “When Karol Wojtyla was consecrated bishop of Cracow by Pius XII in 1958 he took, ‘Totus Tuus’ (all yours) as his motto, thus presenting himself to Mary. In his first Urbi et Orbi message immediately after being elected pope he said, “At this difficult hour, full of fear, we must turn our thoughts with filial devotion to the Virgin Mary who always lives in the midst of Christ and exists as his mother. We must repeat the words, Totus Tuus which 20 years ago were inscribed into our heart and soul.”‘

Pope John Paul II has visited many of the major Shrines to Mary. He attributed his escape from death at the hands of a would-be assassin and the overthrow of communism in Eastern Europe to the intervention of Mary. Millions of Catholics are making pilgrimages to the various Marian shrines, seeking and often claiming miracles of healing and answers to their prayers to Mary. New apparitions of Mary and special messages from her are being claimed in various parts of the world. Yet, there is absolutely no Scriptural foundation for any of these beliefs or practices. Mary was indeed a virgin (pure sexually) so that she could fulfill the Old Testament prophecy that Christ would be born of a virgin (Isa. 7:14). She was a godly woman, but not sinless. As with all true believers in Christ, when Mary died, her soul and spirit went to heaven, but her body awaits the resurrection; she did not bodily ascend to heaven as did Jesus Christ. Nothing in Scripture indicates that prayers were ever offered to Mary nor that she was worshipped by anyone. Most of Roman Catholic teaching concerning Mary is based entirely on human tradition and contradicts the Bible, the Word of God.

The present ecumenical emphasis and activities of the Roman Catholic Church are also of recent origin. When Vatican Council I was held in 18691870, the invitation of the pope to the Orthodox Churches to participate was refused; and, his public appeal to “Protestants and all non-Catholics” to return to the only true fold” received resentful refusals. However, in the intervening years it became increasingly obvious to the Roman Catholic hierarchy that their church needed some serious updating, particularly with regard to relationships with other churches. In 1960, Pope John XXIII established the Secretariat for Promoting Christian Unity; and, in 1962, he convoked Vatican Council II which he called “An ecumenical council for the universal church.”

Less than a year later, Pope John XXIII died, but his successor, Pope Paul VI, who had attended four sessions of Vatican 11 before becoming pope, did everything possible to continue and expand the ecumenical emphasis. His expressed position was that the Roman Catholic Church could best demonstrate the validity of its teaching, not by condemnation or severity, but with the “medicine of mercy.” His emphasis was upon “working for the full visible unity in truth among all Christians” and that this unity should extend also to non-Christians. This new approach of Vatican 11 was successful in gaining the co-operation of the major Orthodox Church bodies as well as 38 delegated observers from almost all the major Protestant denominations. Of course, Pope John Paul 11 has expanded the ecumenical emphasis in the Roman Catholic Church to unprecedented heights. While this has received high praise from religious leaders and denominations, the kind of unity sought by the Roman Catholic Church is contrary to the Bible. All unity purchased at the expense of doctrinal purity is satanic and deceptive. 2 Cor. 6:14-18, Eph. 5:11, 2 Tim. 3:1-17; 4:1-8. All who join hands in ecumenical fellowship with those who preach a false Gospel are under God’s curse. Gal. 1:6-10.

Palo Mayombe

Palo Mayombe is the dark side of Santeria and is said to be the world’s most powerful and feared form of black magic. The difference between Palo Mayombe and Santeria is those who practice the religion of Santeria profess to use the forces of light to achieve their goals and magic spells, while the members of Palo Mayombe use the forces of darkness. Many members of Santeria avoid being associated with Palo Mayombe. Ecumenical Prayer Meeting - No - Palo Mayombe Sm 1Palo Mayombe has a very long history, originating in the African Congo and transported to the Caribbean during the Spanish slave trade to Cuba and Puerto Rico in the 1500s. The influence of Palo Mayombe can be found in Central America, Brazil and Mexico. In Brazil it is known as Quimbanda, a mixture of traditional Congo, and is indigenous in India and Latin American spiritualism It has its own priesthood and set of rules and regulations which will vary according to the Palo Mayombe house to which a practising individual – called a Palero – has been initiated into. It is a very strong and powerful form of black magic.

Ecumenical Prayer Meeting - No - Palo Mayombe Sm 2

The Roman Catholic Church was infiltrated by the false teachings and unscriptural practices of the Charismatic Movement in the early 1960’s. Its influence within Roman Catholicism is growing rapidly. As always, the devil has a very clever way of compounding error while giving the results a more respectable appearance. Space limitations prevent a more comprehensive consideration of its past and present approaches but we have prepared other articles providing important details to all who might be interested in knowing why the Charismatic Movement and its teachings are so deceptive and dangerous. Once this movement became entrenched in the Roman Catholic Church, RCC leaders were quick to see that it would be t
BiblicalWarrior · 51-55, M
@Qwerty14 You don't get it. In accordance with Biblical instructions, I "have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness."
@BiblicalWarrior And does the current Pope have anything to do with it?
BiblicalWarrior · 51-55, M
@Qwerty14 The whole RC system has been corrupt since its beginning. It is an amalgamation of watered-down Christianity and Paganism, much more Pagan than Christian. Nowhere does the Bible say that Christ ever assigned a human being to be the head of His church.
Carazaa · F
These are Gods words

ROMANS 9:6-26

[b]God’s Sovereign Choice

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[b] 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,


“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:


“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”[i]


[/b]
@Carazaa

....but it's NOT my [i]opinion[/i] that other people call him dishonest. It's a fact.
I know some people don't like me lol. That's a fact too.
That doesn't bother me.

Like i said, you let him speak for himself.
Carazaa · F
@Pikachu I know lots of people like you! But It is terribly mean to slander, but I guess you will do what you want.
@Carazaa

Point of order: it's only slander if it's not true.
And it is demonstrably true.
StevetheSleeve · 31-35, M
That god does a lot of weird shit.
You stole that from the Cliff Notes version of The Bible 😁@StevetheSleeve
What if that baby is Hitler? Would you kill him knowing it would save millions?
@JBird Depends what you mean by anti-Semitism. The Nazi's version of it (which is most people's idea of it today) very much was nothing to do with Christianity.
JBird · F
@Qwerty14 maybe Nazi anti-Semitism does not have religious aspects but still early anti-Semitism do heavily based on Christianity. So you can say hatred towards Jews did come out of Christianity.
@JBird Sure. Just like hatred for Christians came out of Judaism. The religions have issues with one another because the Jews deny the Messiah. Then you got the conflicts over the holy land. But for the most part, Jews and Christians get along.

None of this has to do with Hitler though. He hated religion. Sure he was raised Catholic but once his parents died he gave up on faith. He just wasn't as outspoken about hating Christianity because there were a lot of Germans and Italians who still followed the church and he needed them on his side.
The Bible says killing anyone is wrong yet 1/4 is about killing. The Bible does say he creates both good and evil. Thus making him God of truly everything. I believe it is the KJV in particular that uses the phrase "evil".
It really needs to be understood from the culture at the time. The ancient Jews didn't have a separate God of evil. God was the creator and created everything. Evil was simply his face of wrath. But that is hard for people to deal with. Humans don't like good and evil mixed in the same being. So the angel of the lord of Satan/death being one eventually took on a greater and greater share of the evil leaving God looking sparkling clean. Until eventually two opposing beings were created and God became all good.
There is a book called The Birth of Satan by Gregory Wray and T.J. Mobley that talks about just this thing. It is non secular and uses the Bible as its main source but analyzes the rise of Satan in the scriptures.
So is God immoral? Originally yes. But he was also master of all and there was no back talking or you'd get smiteed.
BiblicalWarrior · 51-55, M
@Pherick Death is the punishment for sin. it was never meant to be part of life at all.
Pherick · 41-45, M
@BiblicalWarrior Of course it was. Are you saying God didnt know man was going to sin?

If he did, then it was a part of his plan and a part of life. If he didnt know, then he is not all knowing.
Carazaa · F
@Pherick We can't know Gods motives. He doesn't explain everything to us. e don't need to know everything just that he is good. And I can testify to that.
NativeOregonian · 51-55
Not moral at all.
JesusChrist · 100+, M
[quote]
Do not make an idol for yourself, whether in the shape of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.[/quote]

The God, or perhaps Gods even, of the Bible is a character in books written by men. Written by men, written with the wisdom of men, and so also the foolishness of men. God is a character that is just like men, in many ways created in the image of men, God has men's wisdom and God has men's foolishness.

Such false modesty to say what you wrote was divinely inspired. Such false modesty to say what you wrote is the voice of God, when you are but a human being. Such false modesty also to believe what these authors wrote. Why is this often overlooked, that the Bible was written by Men. Mortal men, with questionable intentions, with questionable wisdom, with men's foolishness just like any other men! Also edited by Men, where some books were accepted, some weren't, and different versions of this exist. All done by Men!

The people who unquestioningly believe what they believe from these books, books written by men, books with the wisdom of men and the foolishness of men, are but the Idolaters of Men!

These books were written by men, yet you have made idols of them!
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
Isn't it better to establish a bigger idea of what morality is?
For everyone that doesn't believe morality is set in stone (me included) then this argument becomes seriously problematic. If you also go from the idea that God is the source of morality (which is ussually the case in religion) then it's God which decides what is Moral and what is immoral.

And to go even further, even in "normative" morality (which most non-religion people use to form senses of morality) there is always the problematic nature of the "exception" to the norm. Which can only be absolved by God (or in pre-liberal tradition: the sovereign). As Carl Schmitt said in his book on political theology: The sovereign decides what is the exception. So in those troubled moments in time, God (or the sovereign) is the entity that decides how to deal with the problems that occur when you apply normativity. Hence God always gets a clean pass. (So does the sovereign)

This btw was also an argument during the "Neuremburg Trials" after the holocaust. That Germans enforcing the will of the sovereign (Hitler and the NAZI-party) did nothing wrong. Because they are the sovereign. The allies went against this by using the idea of "universal human rights", which according to the liberal view, constrain all sovereigns in their use of power because they are not permitted to sin again these universal rules (or natural rights). But the allies are an "outside force" , with another vieuw on "reality" that judged from outside the NAZI-mindset. Inside the NAZI-mindset nothing was wrong and they were acting in a moral way because they applied the will of the sovereign which is the source of morality in their thinking.

So if you pass judgement onto God, then at least put the words "from my perspective", because inside the mindset of the world where in this God resides, it's perfectly rational for God to do these things and still be moral.

To leave on a personal note... I think the God of the Christian bible has some serious problems when it comes to morality used in the "west". If you believe in englightenment values and in the universal laws of man, then God is guilty for a lot of stuff and should at the bare minimum be put forth for crimes against humanity. You can't believe in the universal laws of man AND believe God is moral.
BiblicalWarrior · 51-55, M
@Kwek00 God, being God, is not, and cannot be, subject to laws made by His creatures. Rather, as His creatures, we are subject to His laws, and they are the ultimate expression of what is moral, being a transcript of His character.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@BiblicalWarrior So... (and correct me if I'm wrong) We are in agreement on the nature of God, as being "the" source of morality. And it's also God that decides on morality (and the exception, since he goes against the rules he has set for man, which don't apply for Him)? ([b]EDIT:[/b] I'm talking from in a religious sphere here)

If we can agree on that.

Then my last statement, that if we believe (in a liberal society) that "power" needs to be constrained, and we therefore invoke "natural laws" (like the right to live and not be killed) ... according to those laws, if we apply them to God, That God would end up in a tribunal with all the things he did.



There are 2 diffrent arguments here.

1. God is the source of all morality ([b]EDIT:[/b] From in the religious sphere)
2. According to the morality of western-liberal values God is considered a criminal

Both can perfectly go together. Even as a christian! The problem for the religious person, is that it feels like a sin to question God. So you don't, and therefore you don't apply earthly law to Godly beings.

That's also why I think pikachus' question is way to complex to be high and mighty about.
Carazaa · F
@BiblicalWarrior Exactly. And this life is short, and he controls eternity, and has proven his loving nature because of this world he made for us which is beautiful, and even gave us a love letter, the Bible where he tells us the future, and even visited us to show that he has understands our pain and he paid our ransom in full. We can't even understand that kind of love. It is ignorant to judge Him. Especially since we are destroying this world, we are so hateful, and so sinful. We shouldn't judge others, and definitely not God unless we risk his anger. No I want his blessings. I want him to answer all my prayers. And he does.

Hallelujah, thank you Jesus, I will never deny you, or say a single word against you because you have been amazing to me, and my kids! I will do whatever you want, and go wherever you need me to go!
NewBecky · 51-55, F
The Bible is rather clear that God is the creator and sustainer of all life. Those who reject God are already dead. They are rejecting the giver of life. He sustains their body in hope that they will, in their own will, choose to repent and turn to Him for a life with Him. But, if people choose to reject life then He will give to them what they wished for. Separation from God will be separation from life.
NewBecky · 51-55, F
@Sharon Of course! You are free to make that decision! :)
Entwistle · 56-60, M
@Sharon If it existed you could at least eat the flying spaghetti monster and it would prolong your life by giving you nutrition.
I'm sure I once read of it feeding 5000 by pulling it's own leg off and breaking one piece of garlic bread into 10,000 pieces!
Sharon · F
@NewBecky [quote]You need to read the book in order to fully understand why we say that there is a mountain of evidence.[/quote]
Every time I've read anything that creationists have claimed proves their case, all I've ever found is propaganda and unsupported claims. I've no reason to believe Strobel's offering is any different.
Sroonaka616 · 31-35, M
I also agree that God is immoral. What type of monster gives children cancer. Seriously WTF God.
Sroonaka616 · 31-35, M
@Carazaa What about all the times he doesn't answer your prayers?
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@Sroonaka616 In those cases, creationists are taught to either blame themselves, or to attribute the lack of response to some deeper (always mysterious) purpose. In any case, the magical entity is always given a free pass.
Carazaa · F
@Sroonaka616 If we follow Jesus he answers all our prayers. That is my experience. And that is what Jesus promises. if he does not answer all prayers it is because we sin. Then he does not hear, and will not answer.
saintsong · 41-45, F
The whole world was filled with violence and demons having sex with women creating nephilem or violent giants. Those babies would grow up to be wicked anyways God had to cleanse the earth
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@BiblicalWarrior So you agree with me that "Noah" found "Grace" (or favour). It feels that you are argreeing with me when you say: [i]"grace is defined as undeserved or unearned favour.".[/i]

Which I think makes my point? Because I don't really see a reason why this particular human being that was deemed "unworthy" got "grace". Because as you said, it's "undeserved" as in: there is no reason why Noah deserved favour.

[quote]None of us can earn, nor do we deserve God's favour or else it ceases to be grace and becomes wages owed.[/quote]

Exactly, grace is given by the grace of however gives it. It's not an obligation, it's granted. So the question stays open why for the 8 milion people, God decided to give "grace" to "favour" this one man with his family above all others even tough there is no line of text showing us that this man was diffrent then all the others. He ends up being diffrent, but when judgement was cast (as in, when God decided to flood his creation) there is no reason why this guy would be better then the other one. The only thing we have is the fact that he descends from Enoch, in which case we agree that god just likes Enoch family and has a problematic relationship with everyone else. We don't know this for sure, because it's not explicitly in the text, but the God of the bible does condemn Noah just like anny other human from that time, but for some reason gives "Grace".

This part also doesnt change my argument.

The last part:

[quote]The plain and simple truth of Scripture, regardless of the version you use, is that God actually owes us nothing, but we owe Him everything.[/quote]

Needs a way longer argument to flesh out. Because this has nothing to do with passing "Grace". What argument would you use to give foundation to the idea that we owe God everything? Cause this is something that can be discussed, even tough I'll probably have to start reading some more. But from the sources that I read, that is also a verry unclear position to take. But I can be wrong.
BiblicalWarrior · 51-55, M
@Kwek00 To further explain my last point, as per your request: Without God, we would not exist, we could not breathe, we could not think, we could not act, our hearts could not beat. All that we are and have is from God, and as such is His, we are just caretakers, or to use a more modern term, managers of things that belong to God.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@BiblicalWarrior If find that a strange position to take. I'll tell you why. Since we are talking about the "origin" of mankind and the fact that we were bestowed with life as a a reason to ow someone everything. Don't you think that we need a bit more then that? That life alone is not enough to be trully thankfull. Isn't the way how you treat what you have given life also something to take in consideration?

To look at why God bestowed life, you actually have 2 accounts. You have the first and the second chapter of Genesis. And if we agree that the bible is consistent (which I actually do, to have a good story even tough you have to think about certain things and how they are able to relate) then you have to look at the two accounts as being consistent.

In Gensis 1, "God" shapes everything. But he didn't shape mankind for being His servant.

[quote][b]Genesis 1:26-29:[/b] 26. Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27. So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28. [b]Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."[/b] 29. And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. [/quote]

God creates "man" in his "image". To subdue the earth, to dominante and to be fruitfull and multiply (which I guess is saying: have some fun you all). He also gives them everything, as a gift.

This narrative changes in the second chapter which sometimes feels like a totally diffrent story. But it's also the chapter that is incredibly important to understand the concept of "sin" in religions that build their church upon this narrative.

"God" also becomes "Lord God" from Genesis 2:4 and becomes "God" again later on. Which I don't believe is insignificant. It almost feels at times that these 2 are two diffrent individuals. But we know (because we agree the bible is consistent) that this is not the case. It's one being, but that being is heavily conflicted, almost to the point that it's scizophrenic at times.

This second account is also way more specific. It tells how man was made (by dust on the ground and he breathed life into him (2:7)), it talks about how the woman was made. It puts a lot more emphasis on certain aspects of the story. And it says about man:

[quote][b]Genesis 2:15-17:[/b] 15. [b]Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.[/b] 16. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17. but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." [/quote]

Mans' nature changes. In the first part he was granted the earth and everything on it. In this part he was granted to "tend" the garden. It's not his, but he has to take care of it. And then God also says something that is not important to the argument, but you should at least think about which is: "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die". Because if you take that sentence in it's literal sense then God lies to mankind. Because when they eat from the apple they did not die. But in a non-literal sense you can argue that what dies when you eat it, is mans purity because when God says this thing man has not yet eaten from the fruit. And so man doesn't know "good" from "evil". This part however, that man doesn't know "good" from "evil" is important to the rest of the story, because things just become more difficult once you start taking that into account.

God commands "man" to "not do something". A command to "not do something" only makes sense if the person that you say it too grasps the idea that by doing something that they "ought" not to do, is the same as crossing a moral line for the person that commands it. It's perceived "bad" to cross that line. But God says this to two human beings that have no perception of what is "bad" or "good". They are both innocent and not bestowed with the knowledge of "good and evil".

Then comes the entire "snake" episode who kinda debunks Gods literal-claim that they would surely die when they would eat the fruit. And the eyes of man opened and they knew "Good" from "Evil", because they sinned against Gods' command. Something they were unable to distinguish before, because they didn't have the knowledge? You would think that God would have given "man" this knowledge so that they at least would understand that they would be doing something wrong if they disobeyed. But this is not the case in the story as I read it. But please elaborate where I'm wrong because I'm not a christian and I don't do bible studies.

God comes back from his trip (who knows where he went) and calls out for man, because he doesnt know where they are (which is a bit theatrical for an omnipotent being, but okay, it reads like a good story so I'm all for it). Then you have something that is not in the first part of the story. God lashes out. Like passionatly. It's not poetry, it's just pure rage. He curses the snake, the woman and the man. But he starts with the snake.

Cursing of the snake: Genesis 3:14-15
Cursing of the woman: Genesis 3:16
Cursing of the male: Genesis 3:17-19

What is strange is that in the last part of the cursing, he also says that mankind will die and return to the ground. But this was already part of the plan since man wasn't meant to live forever. Genesis 3:22 reads:

[quote]22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"[/quote]

Which implicates that man was going to die annyway, unless he eats from the tree of life. Now man gets granted "eternal life" in the "afterlife" later on in the story if man abides by certain rules. But eternal life on earth was never in the plan. But it's nice of God to put some emphasis on the fact that we need to die (Genesis 3:19), so it's not really part of the curse more like saying what we should already know. But since it's the 2nd chapter of a story, the reader has to be made clear that we are talking in this perception of reality.

And then, after the passion, after the rage subsided and God did what he had to do. He takes pitty on his creation. He goes from "seriously angry" to "was this really nescesary" (what a lot of people experience btw after an emotional outburst). And then he does this:

[quote]21. Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.[/quote]

So instead of cooping with the fact that he ordered mankind to do something really strange: "obeying an order, if you don't know good from evil". And appologising for this strange twist in logic. He curses them in a fit of rage. But then he also seems to be aware that this is not the best way to go about it. Because he makes them clothes directly afterwards. As if there is some awareness here somewhere between the lines, but we can only "assume" because it's not explicitly in the story.


Hence why I argued earlier that there are people that argue "God" set it all up so man could fail the test. And the rest of the story can continu. If man just obeyed God, the story was over after chapter 1. No one needed to be casted out, and man inherrited the earth. But in chapter 2 we go on, and some strange things start to happen, some complexities turn up that makes people wonder if this wasn't all intended. If you think the bible is consistent (as I agreed we would do in the beginning) then this idea isn't so far fetched. If god in chapter 1 grants mankind the entire earth, then the complexity of chapter 2 has to get mankind out of the garden. How else are you ever going to do annything with the earth if you are stuck in the garden? Since God didn't gave human beings the complexity of evaluating "good" from "evil", how did mandkind ever understand that they were making a mistake by eating the fruit? Eating the fruit matures mankind, it goes from "infancy" to "maturity" by commiting sin and understanding "good" from "evil" as mankind becomes like "God" who also understands "good" from "evil". Man therefore becomes more a reflection of Gods image then it was at the beginning of the story. This entire process needs to be taken place because it seems (and this is the debate) that it was intended to happen.



Annyway... now I want to come back to your point, we need to thank God for everything because God gave us everything. I'm okay with the fact that if we reason within the dataset of the story that God indeed gave us everything (chapter 1) but he also gave us all the curses (chapter 2). After that God displays diffrent amounts of favouritism (sometimes without good reason) treats mankind pretty bad at times (like killing off 8 milion people in the flood alone). ... I mean at what point do we have to stop being thankfull for the theatrics? Some people are born in a family of which one or both of the parents are "disfunctional". You can still be thankfull that mom and dad gave you life, but this is not "everything". People still need to make it on their own (as God commanded us to do by cursing us and throwing us out of the garden). Some of the developments we made as human beings (even within the story) are not things God gave us, it's things we did by ourselves. Certain things are not there because of God but because we developed talents, learned to reason, learned to progress, etc.

And while in chapter 1, mankind seems like some sort of "companion" to God, in chapter 2 we become merely servants? Do we have to thank someone because we are there slave? That's a strange mentality to have, even if the master treats you well. And I think we can have a serious debate if the master treatened us well? He seems to fail at the moment he gives his first command, by giving a command to a creation (his creation) that doesn't understand that breaking the command is a "bad" thing to do?
This syllogistic deduction rings true and sequitur as one segues reasonably into the other. In addition other observations of His behavior also follow this pattern as when He permits Joshua and his army to burn down the entire city of Jericho and everything/everyone in it. Then there's Sodom and Gomorrah. These cities must have certainly had babies in them.

However, consider that if the God of the Bible is truly a God of Love, a God of Peace, a God of Forgiveness and a God of Wisdom that we are led to believe then it stands to reason that He would not act in hypocritical and capricious ways changing His mind at the drop of a godly hat. You would expect that He would behave in consistent ways as a Supreme Being.

Therefore I propose that the God of the Bible and the God\Supreme Being of the Universe are two different things yielding two different sets of expectations. One more mythical making sense when conveniently necessary while the other more self-explanatory making increasing sense logically. It then follows that the Supreme Being would supersede the deified narrative presented in the Bible. How's that for syllogism?

@DudeistPriest

There certainly exists the idea even within the abrahimic religions that god is one among many. I suppose there could well be a supreme being.

Although it would be easier for the christian to espouse a fallible god rather than an infallible one.
^Bingo!^
Brianthesnail · 56-60, M
The fact that humankind has been able to,imagine such a vengeful being is quite unnerving
Brianthesnail · 56-60, M
If I admit that I will lose my faith in humanity
Brianthesnail · 56-60, M
But OK, you're right
😢
@Brianthesnail

Yeah, sadly people are the worst. But we're also capable of great empathy and kindness!
JesusChrist · 100+, M
Matthew 10:34-38 New International Version (NIV)
[quote]
34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
[/quote]

Look closely upon those words. Those are not a perfect being's wisdom. It is the Foolishness of Men.

Why do we let men exuding in their false modesty, exuding in their foolishness, influence our relationships? Tell me you Idolaters of Men who wrote these books you never deeply questioned, tell me why do you let mere mortal men exuding in their foolishness set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law? You hear about this in your churches, in visiting your Christian friends, in Christians gossiping about their non-Christian family members and perhaps you've experienced it first hand.

If there is love between you and another, why let these foolishness set you against one another? With all things being equal, anyone who sets you against your father is not worthy of you; anyone who sets you against your son is not worthy of you; anyone who sets you against your mother is not worthy of you; anyone who sets you against your daughter is not worthy of you. Anyone who sets You against your Love one is not worthy of You.

Anyone who proclaims to be God, or the voice of God sets about to fool you and is not worthy of you. Anyone who sets you against your better judgement is not worthy of you.

As I've said before, you've made Idols of these men, and that you've Idolozed them so much is a testament of your unquestioning them, to the point that you've ruined relations, peace and love for them.
Carazaa · F
@JesusChrist Oh How I love these words. These words have made me sane. These words are like water to my soul. When I was hated by my Mom because I wanted to follow Jesus and I had to make a choice to leave Jesus or be hated, I chose Jesus. God who inspired these words reassured me that He loves me even if my family, and the world can't understand me. I go overboard to love my Mom, but she hates me because I am a Christian. These are words from God to Godly people to make it through each day, alone, hated, and rejected by men. This is why we love the Bible, because God explains why we are persecuted. Jesus said they killed me so they will hate you too.
Harriet03 · 41-45, F
[image deleted]
GodSpeed63 · 61-69, M
Yahweh created morality.
@GodSpeed63

[quote]Those words are true regardless.
[/quote]

So you claim. Hence "declaration of faith" and not "demonstration of veracity" 😉

[quote] You have yet to show evidence that there's no God[/quote]

Aw buddy... [i]Do[/i] try to stay focused.
You're talking to a person who has never tried to prove that god does not exist. I invite you to examine everything i've ever posted if you disagree.
Let's dispense with that embarrassing little strawman, shall we?
Atta boy.

[quote]if you're not will to support your postings[/quote]

I support all of my claims when asked.
When i say something is evidence of evolution i explain why i believe it to be so.
When i say something is better explained by evolution than creation i explain why i believe that to be so.

DNA, Fossils, Genetics. I can and HAVE made arguments for why i believe every one of those to exhibit evidence for evolution over creation.

If you'd like to press that point then i am only too willing to provide quotes and screenshots which will demonstrate that your accusations are a baseless attempt to save face which are not grounded in reality.

You can weasel your way out of answering hard questions if you find that satisfying. But don't think for one [i]second[/i], that you can get away with that kind of slander, [i]boy[/i].
You're running with the big dogs. Your little games are obvious to everyone here.
Keep that in mind next time you try to make this claim.
GodSpeed63 · 61-69, M
@Pikachu [quote]So you claim. Hence "declaration of faith" and not "demonstration of veracity"[/quote]

Both.
Budwick · 70-79, M
[b]Syllogism time:[/b]

Mankind does not understand or can explain the supernatural.

God is supernatural.

Mankind can not understand or can explain God.
@Budwick

lol evidently you did NOT follow me.
As in you we both believe the other is exhibiting a handicap😉
Budwick · 70-79, M
[quote]
LOL, evidently you do not follow God.[/quote]
@Budwick

Um yeah...that's the one point we've agreed on...
lol pay attention!
Any god that kills a human is not worthy of roraise or recognition
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
I mean... and I never EVER said annything diffrent.
The characters in the story may make some strange descisions at times.
The bible (as a story) has value, and it's not a bad story. You can criticise the content (which I do too) but I think most of it (there are some chapters that are pretty "meh") make up for some really good story telling.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@GodSpeed63 And another thing.

You should really dive into Miles too.
Yes, he's not a religious person
Yes, he writes critically
Yes, he makes jokes here and there.

BUT and I think this a big but in this context

He takes his work really seriously.
He makes an annalysis of the charachter of God (only God, nothing else) true the entire story of the bible. He uses a huge amount of source material from historians and theologians. He delves deep into the translations (as in words and messages that get distorted because we translate stuff). And I've read critical revieuws from religious persons that don't like the criticism (as can be expected) but also praise Miles for his work by also doing the leggwork in theology that is needed to create a book that has some kind of "balance" between the two worlds. It's not a mockery of the character, he uses the biblical text, and gives diffrent evaluation that he found in delving into religion.

Ofcourse, his sources are limited, because our time is limited. And not everyone read every source. But Miles is still embraced and criticised by both sides. Either by giving the God character to much slack in certain parts OR by being to critical in others. But I think if you are religious or non-religious that it's still a good book and gives you an isight in certain theological questions.
GodSpeed63 · 61-69, M
@Kwek00 [quote]You should really dive into Miles too.[/quote]

Thank you for your suggestion. I will look him up.
SW-User
I’m not religious so I couldn’t say. But in theory, no he’s not. As he seems vengeful. I mean what god would ask a parent to kill his child for him as a test?
SW-User
morality is ever changing throughout society and generations.
@SW-User

In some ways. There seem to be certain constants though.
Murder, theft and lying seem to be pretty universally recognized as morally wrong.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Pikachu What is considered "murder" and what is considered "lying" has been in flux tough. It's not because the words are mainly used in the negative, that society didn't have diffrent meanings of them over time.
Deadcutie · 18-21, F
Absolute moral authority

What is a dead baby to god when he can bring life to that baby later?

Can you bring back the dead? Then who are you to judge?
DunDunDun · 22-25, F
@Deadcutie idiot
@Deadcutie

Like i said, you talk about me a lot buuuuut you can't actually address my arguments and that's why you get so frustrated so quickly and fall back on spite
Maybe you'll grow out of it.

When you do you're welcome back🙂
Deadcutie · 18-21, F
@Pikachu I do answer your questions, they just aren’t the answers you wanna hear
Carazaa · F
This whole post is not moral!
Pherick · 41-45, M
@Carazaa I am sure if god were real he would have much better things to do than watch me sin.
GodSpeed63 · 61-69, M
@Carazaa [quote]This whole post is not moral![/quote]

You just ain't whistling Dixie, sister.
JesusChrist · 100+, M
It's not moral for asking questions? Some places in your mind are forbidden to shed light on? What are you hiding?

Is this how your mind reacts when you approach such topics? It's not moral! Then what do you do? You treat those who dare to ask such questions the way your mind has reacted to you?

Well I'm glad some people are brave enough to go where you forbid yourself to go.
Jake966 · 56-60, M
Seriously ?
Jake966 · 56-60, M
@Pikachu read the Bible and get to understand your Creator
@Jake966


Well you and i are having a discussion here and now.
You clearly have already read the bible so why don't you give me your educated explanation of how killing babies by the millions is a moral act.
Sharon · F
@Jake966 [quote]mine is provable[/quote]

In that case, you can show your independently verifiable proof.
Eternity · 26-30, M
Semya · 22-25, M
Tbh Old Testament God had no chill at all
calicuz · 51-55, M
This is too deep for me.
@calicuz

I know how you feel😉
This comment is hidden. Show Comment
NicoleA · 26-30, F
😂 I love this
Sarabee · 41-45
God is holy ,He can not look at sin,but God spared the baby's lives up in heaven🌹
@Sarabee

Where is that written?
DunDunDun · 22-25, F
If he is then Hitler was a saint
@DunDunDun

lol i don't think i'd go that far.
I'd be content to say that they're both immoral.
DunDunDun · 22-25, F
@DudeistPriest shad up
JBird · F
It's all for the promised land according to a Christian friend of mine.
Carazaa · F
God gives, God takes, Blessed be the name of the Lord!

 
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