If you don't believe in the God of the Bible, what would it take for you to believe? [Spirituality & Religion]

@SW-User What proof would you find to be adequate? He has given me proof, in my life, causing me to believe. But if you had that same proof, you might not believe. What proof would be enough for you?

@ms20182878 You fail to understand the specific meaning of the word "proof." And since you poo-pooed the concept of "real, independently verifiable, evidence," you appear to have jumped on that bandwagon loved by fanatics and scammers of many camps, the one that claims that we can toss the concept of objective reality into the trash just because recent experiments in quantum mechanics yield baffling observations about subatomic particles. Real physicists are appalled to see popular opinions leaping to such ignorant conclusions.

@MissPriscillaPrim I don't believe that I'm "on that bandwagon loved by fanatics and scammers of many camps, the one that claims that we can toss the concept of objective reality into the trash". I actually have a degree in Physics and I do engineering daily that requires the application of scientific method... so I don't think that I'm ignorant of the process after doing it for 40+ years. One of the difficulties that I encounter daily with others in my job is that they want to just make subjective decisions all of the time, and their decision criteria is never consistent. So I would just like to know what the criteria is, so that we can have consistency in our discussion. Simple as that...

@ms20182878 Who knows? I don't think a "benevolent" and "loving" god who allows children to be exploited by pedophiles and to suffer from some of the worst diseases daily is worth my reverence even if it does indeed exist.

@SW-User That's a common concern of many. The problem is that for there to exist something called "love", there needs to also exist the ability to "not love". We have free choice in our world... and therefore some people choose to do bad things. To remove all of the pain and suffering from the world would require the removal of our free choice (unless you have figured out some other way to do it).

Not many here know it, but I have one of those "worst diseases" you mention, and I probably only have a year or two to live, and my death will not be very pretty. There is no cure, no way to slow it down much, and it is working its way through my body day by day. YET... I love the God of the Bible with all my heart in response to His great love for me.

@ms20182878 I'm surprised someone in your position can abuse the word "proof" as blithely as you did.

@MissPriscillaPrim Can you kindly explain how I'm abusing the word "proof"?

@ms20182878 [quote]He has given me proof, in my life, causing me to believe[/quote]
No, you have interpreted certain life events in the light of certain scriptural readings to embrace the traditional faith which motivated the authors of that scripture.
I'm not in any way criticizing this momentous decision of yours, only how you describe it.

@MissPriscillaPrim When I ask others to define their criteria for "proof", it is difficult for most people to do so. But when I say that I have "proof" in my life, you claim that I am abusing the word "proof", without asking what my criteria was. And if I give you my criteria, you will likely say that it is not a good enough criteria for you.

You're right, it was my personal choice, just as it is a personal choice... to believe... or to not believe... for everyone. We will see how it plays out in the end.

@ms20182878 It's very simple. I called up my dictionary.
proof |proōf|
noun
1 evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement : "you will be asked to give proof of your identity" / " this is not a proof for the existence of God."

@ms20182878 And when I went on that rant about the "Heisenberg" bandwagon, this time and place was less than appropriate. Sorry about THAT.

@MissPriscillaPrim Yes, I understand the definition of "proof". The difficulty is that we live in a culture of relative truth... so many people believe that they can define what is true for them and what is not true... and that can be different from what is true/not true for someone else. I have been trying to work around this problem by asking people what their criteria is... but it seems that no one likes to share the details of their criteria, they want to keep their criteria very general. When the criteria for proving truth is too general, the proof decision (true/false) becomes very subjective.

@ms20182878 I use this sort of web forum strictly for entertainment, enjoying the gamut of written behavior from communally sharing to abusive, from healthy advice to raving nonsense. (And I've contributed to all styles, I admit.) I trust we all know the last thing that's going to happen is a fundamental change of anyone's opinions here.

@MissPriscillaPrim 🙂