If you don't believe in the God of the Bible, what would it take for you to believe? [Spirituality & Religion]

@Dolimyte and just what might that be? What would convince you? Or would nothing convince you?

@ms20182878 I don't know, but your god would, and the fact that he has not provided it to me implies that he either does not want me to believe or does not actually exist.

@Dolimyte Sometimes, He waits until the time is right and our heart is prepared to receive Him. In my case, He waited until I was exceeding frustrated with trying to run my life my way, and everything was a big mess... then He showed up. My heart had to be broken and humble to receive Him.

@ms20182878 If thats true, I still wont believe the bible.

@Dolimyte I'm sorry to hear that your mind and heart are closed to the possibility of believing.

@ms20182878 Have you read it? It's full of ridiculous claims and contradictions.

@Dolimyte Yes, I have read it... several times.

@ms20182878 And you don't see any issues? Everything in there is moral and just? No contradictions at all?

@Dolimyte If you want to discuss specific parts of the Biblical text, I can do that with you. The challenging aspect is that you need to read the text with a consistent Biblical hermeneutic and also understand the historical context and the original languages. Whenever I have dug to the bottom of an apparent conflict, I have always found a resolution of the conflict. If you read the text at the surface level without doing the research, it will appear to have many conflicts. Your concerns about being moral and just also need to be researched in the same way. If you have specific situations, we can discuss them.

@ms20182878 no thanks. I've done my own research. I have no intrest in watching you do mental gymnastics in order to shelter yourself from the fact that your holy book is an obvious work of fiction, one that condones slavery and genocide among other immoral acts.

@Dolimyte When I was a christian I studied the bible and reached the same conclusion as you. That's partly why I no longer believe in the christian god. The twists and turns taken by christian apologists to attempt to resolve the conflicts are very entertaining to watch but prove nothing other than their desperation.

@Dolimyte I'm sorry, but if you don't want to discuss specific instances, I cannot really have much of a discussion with you.

@ms20182878 If you're unwilling to do the easy bits of research into the bible to find stunning contradictions and the most appallingly inhumane concepts, even in the gospel and the letters of pSaul, don't hang that on Dolimyte.

@ms20182878 You're describing sophistry. Instead of following the many obvious questions raised as you read that big messy scrapbook collection (the Bible is not a book, not even two books or 66!) you turn onto very, VERY well-trod paths finding all the excuses, circular logic, and sheer lunacy used for centuries to protect the shaky foundations of your faith. To say it's a common condition is an understatement.

@MissPriscillaPrim For me, it is simply a reality that I have a limited amount of time each day. Why would I want to write more extensively in response his general comments and questions? How would I ever be able to answer him in a way that he found acceptible?

@MissPriscillaPrim "Sophistry" implies that I am trying to deliberately deceive. That is not my intent at all, thank you.

@ms20182878 I have to guess that your newest response is to my earlier comment about unwillingness to research. Claiming there's not enough time in anyone's life for the most exhaustively thorough research project on a matter I'm suggesting you browse for an hour or two if that — more sophistry.

@ms20182878 Sorry you misunderstood. I was implying you are being deceived by powers interested in religion only for its use in sociopolitical control.

@MissPriscillaPrim I tend to not follow the crowds... I do my own study.

@ms20182878 Yet the opinions you express here are identical to specific large religious organizations...

@MissPriscillaPrim That may be true... but it's not because I'm following them.

@ms20182878 OK

@ms20182878 I thought I was pretty clear that I'm not interested in a discussion. I don't think it would be at all productive. If you want some examples, I can provide them to you. A quick google search turned up this list of immoral acts. This is by far not a complete list. I'm not even going to touch on the contradictions. There are just too many. True some can be dismissed as translation errors, but should the messages god wanted conveyed to everyone really be subject to that kind of thing? Anyway, here is the list. It contains such things as the subjugation of women, the condemning of homosexusls, genocide, slavery and the murder of children and infants. Thats just repugnant.

No. 1:St Paul’s advice about whether women are allowed to teach men in church:

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

No. 2: In this verse, Samuel, one of the early leaders of Israel, orders genocide against a neighbouring people:

“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)

No. 3: A command of Moses:

“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

No. 4: The ending of Psalm 137, a psalm which was made into a disco calypso hit by Boney M, is often omitted from readings in church:

“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)

No. 5: Another blood-curdling tale from the Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:

“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)

No. 6: St Paul condemns homosexuality in the opening chapter of the Book of Romans:

“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)

No. 7: In this story from the Book of Judges, an Israelite leader, Jephthah, makes a rash vow to God, which has to be carried out:

“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)

No. 8: The Lord is speaking to Abraham in this story where God commands him to sacrifice his son:

‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)

No. 9: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)

No. 10: “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

@Dolimyte I can explain most of these for you.
1) Women were not to teach men in that culture. The men were always the teachers. Paul is just reiterating the Jewish religious culture.
2) God told them to kill everyone because He always chooses to protect the purity of the culture of His people, above other peoples. The Israelites routinely failed to follow God's instructions to kill all, and it almost always came back to bite them.
3) God views a sorceress, a person influenced by demonic powers, as evil and wanted them killed to protect His people from their influence.
4) Psalm 137 was written after the Israelites were taken into captivity in Babylon. Many of them were brutally killed and it was a very painful experience for them. The psalmist is making the statement at the end of the psalm that he would be happy to see revenge against the Babylonians.
5) I didn't dig too deeply into this one, but it is a historical account of an event, as is much of the book of Judges.
6) God is pretty clear about homosexuality. It is not a natural thing in His eyes and He does not approve of it.
7) This is a lesson to Jephthah to be careful how you interact with God, and not presume that He can be manipulated for your own benefit. God was teaching Jephthah a lesson.
8) This is a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, teaching us about the pain of sacrificing your firstborn son, and also a testing of Abraham. And God provided the way out with the ram caught in the thicket.
9) The rest of this context is that while wives are to submit to their husbands as to the Lord, husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave up his life for it. So it goes both ways in God's design for a marriage.
10) While this was written about slaves and masters, which were common in that culture, it is a lesson for us about being submissive and obedient to our employers and authorities.

It is important to not try to read the text and expect it to conform to our current culture.

@ms20182878 So it was ok then, but not now? Why?