Aside from the faith-based belief that there exists a soul, is there any good reason to suppose that a soul does in fact exist? [Spirituality & Religion]

@Miram I wasn't suggestion a chicken & egg paradox as much as whether consciousness is "fundamental". Consciousness is something that's been with modern physics since Dirac and Heisenberg. Raises its head again with the anthropic principle in cosmology. People say gravity is the crisis in physics. I say it is consciousness. There's a fork in the road. We either assert that QM works as we believe, and then we get consciousness out of it. OK. Mental states come from quantum coherence-- but those states would have to decohere in picoseconds in a wet warm brain. Or we take the other fork and QM is as it is because that's how the consciousness of the observer works. Then consciousness is "fundamental".

A trick here is that when we talk about "consciousness" we're generally talking about some conceptual or perceptual apparatus. I'm talking about a more fundamental consciousness. An "intrinsic awareness" as opposed to that parts of mind that think, remember, feel. These distinctions are well fleshed out in the Buddhist tradition, certainly not in the Abrahamic traditions.

@CopperCicada

If I remember correctly, Buddha declared the Self ([i]Atman)[/i] and the soul [i](Jiva)[/i] to be illusions.

The consciousness is called [i]Vijnana or Chaitanya[/i]. The consciousness, soul, and self are all different things in Dharmic philosophy. Buddhism can be seen as a subset. Is it what you are relating here?

[i]Patisandhi-citta or patisandhi-vinnana[/i] is the actual term for the consciousness that survives death and is reborn. Those are terms that my Sāmkhya mentor and friend uses frequently. I am just a noob who is yet to make any clear correlations between that and QM.

@Miram In QM there is always an observer, which is a consciousness. The traditional view is that observing a quantum system puts the system into a particular state. There is a type of algebra that is peculiar to QM measurements. That's generally attributed to the physical world, but an alternative explanation is that it is how the observer of the quantum system works. If we take the first road, that QM works the way it does because that's how matter works, then we can engage in Penrose's project of figuring out how consciousness bootstraps from complex matter. If we take the second road then consciousness is fundamental and extra-material. That's one. point.

Correct. Buddhism doesn't believe in a permanent soul or self. I am more familiar with Tibetan Buddhism, in which case there is a differentiation between perceptual and conceptual forms of consciousness, and simple innate awareness. Innate awareness is something inseparable from all experience. I'm making the jump and connecting that to fundamental consciousness above.

@Celine quantum physical is more appropriate i imagine as subatomic particles do not conform to conventional laws of physics either, are you into that stuff?

@xSharp we were having a good convo, where did you go?

you did this before as well when i asked you what you thought about my suggestions on equality?

i answered your questions, it is only fair that you answer one of mine :)

@Celine Well you asked. Receive Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior into your heart and life. His Holy Spirit of Truth will dwell in you. You're talking to a man who did just that over thirty years ago and He's still working in me. You may not call it science, but that wouldn't be the truth.

No insensitivity at all. My mother spoke to me. She knew she was dying. She was in and out of consciousness. And in one lucid moment, she told me she didn't want to leave. We had spent days and nights together and her comment to me was hard to hear as I knew medicine, doctors and I couldn't do anything more for her. I finally told her I didn't want her to leave either, but I told her it was ok if she felt it was time. For the next few hours, she asked for my sister, then my brother and said goodbye to them. And she was able to do so. And with some rest off and on, she asked to wear her favorite dress and for everyone to be there with her. The typical physical changes began to take place. And when her breathing slowed and she took her final breaths, I could sense her soul's departure. Whether it be the changes in the air of the room, the changes in the light or the near stoppage of time, there were so many nuances and sensations that gave me the indication that her soul left her body and this earth. It's similar to that of a huge burden being lifted from you. It seems strange to say it, but I felt her departure.

@Celine no but no one can convince another.

@Celine no it's not a cold hard facts that it is the soul but we will never be able to provd it as 100% fact. In my opinion that would defeat the purpose but you have to admit that the 21 grams is intriguing. It wasn't done in a specific lab because it was done at numoerous homes on numoerous death beds.

@Celine While you bring up valid points...I would like to point out that it doesn't make them not real. Not all ghosts are hallucinations, etc. I live an hours away from one of the most haunted places in the US. Texas is home to Bigfoot, I live 30 minutes away from a protected wildlife management area (no hunting) Plenty of sightings of Bigfoot over the years. Then there is the Fouke Monster. There are numerous chupacabra and UFO sightings all over the state. I'm not sure about alien abductions. A lot of Texans carry guns. ;)

@Celine nope I was crystal clear

@Celine interesting though that he did do the same experiment on 12 dogs with no weight change.

i just found this based on 20o subjects done by communist scientists in east germany. In each case the weight loss was exactly the same–1/3,000th of an ounce.they als looked at whether or not it was spontaneous body degeneration and found it was not. interesting they felt it was the soul. ymmv

@Celine it is interesting from a faith standpoint only humans have souls so they should not and did not lose weight. here's the link you asked for. i am by no means an expert so i have no idea the validity of the study.

http://www.noeticscience.co.uk/weighting-the-human-soul/

@Celine A physical soul is arguable. It wouldn't be transported, though. It would simply develop elsewhere due to physical circumstance.

@GreensCornbreadYams https://www.quora.com/Do-the-laws-of-thermodynamics-prove-life-after-death

[quote]Now i know that you're thinking about the human brain, What happens to the energy in it when we die? What you need to know is that [b]the energy the brain consumes is stored primarily in chemical form (glucose). When we die, the chemical reactions used to consume the glucose stop, after that the brain is left to decay[/b], and this "chemical energy" is instead used by the microorganisms responsible for the decay.[/quote]

[quote]Human awareness, or animation, is not the benchmark for life. The benchmark for life is "configuration of changing motion, which is inherently accompanied by inertia and awareness." As atoms combine into complex macro molecules, the complexity of motion in the electronic region becomes capable of programmable instructions, such as, in DNA. This becomes the basis of life.

It is an incorrect to think in terms of "life produce matter," or "matter produces life." A more accurate statement is that motion and awareness accompany each other and as they form into complex configurations, life and matter are generated.[/quote]

@Celine that is how a person of faith would describe the soul...that does not make it so.

@Celine it also serves no purpose to argue such things as there are inevitably things people will believe in that are simply unable to be proven or disproven.