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British people, would you be more likely to vote Labour if it supported a second referendum on Brexit?

As a Labour member and supporter of the leadership, I've generally supported the line they have taken as a compromise position. They've tried to gain acceptance by Labour leavers by honouring the referendum and also tried to gain acceptance by remainers by offering a softer version of Brexit than the Tories.

This strategy worked in the 2017 General Election when we polled well, without quite winning the election. Times have changed though and both leavers and remainers have hardened their positions. Most leavers see nothing short of a no-deal Brexit as a betrayal of what they voted for, even though the leave campaign talked about negotiating a deal and even sometimes mentioned the Norway option. Most remain voters I know who are not Labour Party members see anything less than a second referendum as a betrayal by the Labour Party. I find this attitude frustrating - even as a remain voter myself - because if Labour is going to go against an existing referendum result and a third of its voters, it can't do so lightly. The Labour voting coalition is traditionally a diverse coalition which includes (for example) northern working-class people and liberal metropolitan young professionals.

This is what it is though and much as I'd like to talk about Jeremy Corbyn's social democratic policies, its Brexit which is on most people's minds. Judging by canvassing, its possible Labour will finish third in the European elections and underscore even their own poor polling (though the Tories will be fourth or fifth).

Please comment in as much detail as you like. I really can't be arsed dealing with people being rude though and please keep it relevant. I don't mind non-Brits joining this debate as long as you are not saying ridiculous things about globalist conspiracies or whatever.

Thanks
Harriet03 · 41-45, F Best Comment
[image deleted]Probably Bone Spurs!!

WelshLovely · 46-50, F
I had high hopes for Jeremy Corbyn but I think by trying to please everyone, he's just come across as indecisive and wishy washy.

The referendum was an advisory one, so therefore not legally binding and I think Labour needs to set out its plans and stand by them, whichever way they go. They're not giving any of us much reason to support them apart from just relying on being an alternative to the Tory party who seem to have proved that they couldn't organise getting laid in a whorehouse and have pretty much no regard for the ordinary men and women in the country.
Platinum · M
@WelshLovely it was legally binding once the queen had passed it...and it was legal when most of the MPs voted for the referendum and it was legally binding when 543-54 MPs passed art50....
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@TheThinker That tells you a lot about the Lib Dems and what their priorities are when in Government.
TheThinker · 56-60, M
@Burnley123 Doesn't it just?

I mean yes, the environment is important and reducing plastics in our ocean is essential... but at the price of such human misery?!
Frank52 · 70-79, M
Until the last General Election I have voted Labour every time since I was 21 (yes I'm that old!). Not now. The leadership is shambolic and the party is heavily influenced by some shadowy group with no obvious accountability (Momentum) and some dubious tactics if "Private Eye' is to be believed and I trust its journalism more than any newspaper's. I have never been a member of any party, but have always been a trade union member where there was one.

As to the matter in hand, I think that Corbyn has come across as wavering and timid (I'm sure he's the exact opposite actually) on Brexit, because he cannot make firm statements lest he annoy much of the traditional vote or many of the activists. The parliamentary party gave up on him some time ago.

The Government and Opposition parties mirror the country's splits over Brexit and although I have not much sympathy for the PM, I believe her fate was bound to befall the person who picked up the poisoned chalice left by her predecessor (who poisoned it in the first place).

In the end the Tory Brexit mess has no clearly articulated alternative put forward by Labour and I am genuinely sorry about that. In the meantime, I know what the Greens and Lib Dems believe even with all their flaws, and I know what simplistic solution N Farage is peddling which is all flaw and going to hurt the very people who are clamouring for an easy way out.

Corbyn may well have some policies that I agree with, but after this showing, I suspect he will never led his party into government.
SW-User
I still can't figure out why a second referendum is so inconceivable. Brexit seems to have been sold with a central lie i.e., that it would be easy to do. Well, now you Brits know better. Why not vote again?
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@SW-User Brexiteers would say that the 'establishment' is re-running the vote until they get the 'right' result. TBF there is some plausibility to this argument, even if I ultimately disagree.
SW-User
@Burnley123 It's a logical argument, but I think given how much more is known now then before, the risk of some believing the outcome would be illegitimate is worth it. It also seemed odd that older Brits had the right to doom the younger generations. That argument could be made for any vote I suppose, but it seems different with a referendum.
MartinII · 70-79, M
Very interesting piece. You’ll understand that I’m not very likely to vote Labour myself in any event, though given the mess the Tories have got themselves into, a short dose of socialism might be no bad thing both for the country and for the future of the political parties. But a couple of points on Brexit.

First, I’m not sure you are quite right that most leavers would see anything short of a no-deal exit as a betrayal. It seems that way because of the dog’s breakfast May offered us, and many leavers, myself included, would be happy with no deal. But I also think that if a new Tory leader were to offer the Norway option, or something like it, with a promise of immediate agreement from Brussels and tacit acceptance from Labour, that would command widespread support from many leavers, though obviously not all. Quite how keen remainers would be I’m not sure!

As to a second referendum I think the crucial question is what sort of referendum. I, and I think most leavers, am adamantly opposed to the sort of thing the People’s Vote, and more recently apparently many Labour spokesmen, have been advocating - a choice between a particular leave option and remain. That, in my opinion, would be grossly unfair. But a full-scale rerun of 2016 - revoke Article 50, a simple in/out referendum, and a promise by both parties to respect the result - has much more to be said for it. Indeed, looked at dispassionately, it’s arguably the right thing to do given the current mess.

Much more generally, you are surely absolutely right that the Labour Party has to remember its historic and potential working-class voters. Look at what has just happened in Australia!
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@MartinII We have very different standpoints but thanks for your detailed response.
Justenjoyit · 56-60, M
Lol, why did they even give the people the power on such a complicated issue. Crazy at best 😊
Platinum · M
Don't you understand " go away " you are embarrassing yourself ....I did tell you to google other sources which will all say the same....@RodionRomanovitch
Justenjoyit · 56-60, M
@Platinum lol you are not still flogging this post😂 brexiteers are the ones in the country with egos, they get do uptight about things to lol
Platinum · M
Nope I'm being polite and replying but asking him to go away it's so hard getting through to someone so thick....what business is it of yours...I don't have an ego just knowledge...you on the other hand believe scaremongers and can't think for yourself....go away..@Justenjoyit
Picklebobble2 · 56-60, M
Major foul up from day 1.

Who in their right mind allowed a sitting Prime Minister to take part in three years of [i]secretive[/i] negotiations on the country's behalf only to then, at the last minute, offer a [i]fait accompli[/i] alternative to Brexit ?

And to [i]then[/i] seek other parties help in trying to get it through Parliament saying it was a [i]compromise[/i] !
A shocking waste of time; money and trust !

Labour's problem is that it [i]still[/i] sits on the fence rather than comes out and says what it would want in an agreement should they be left in the position of having to negotiate it.
AND more importantly, what they would do in a post Brexit era
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Picklebobble2 They've been torn in different directions but I really think they now need to pick a position and stick to it. It will piss some people off but at the moment we are pissing everyone off. If the Tories weren't in an even bigger mess, this would be irretrievable.
Picklebobble2 · 56-60, M
@Burnley123 Thinking too much of 'power within sight' rather than what might work for the country, no matter what colour you'd vote for.
SW-User
Straight forward answer. YES.
Reasons are I'm strongly pro remain always have been I fail to see an argument to Change my mind. I accept the original result but believe people now realise that a lot of the promises (easy exit, easy deal, easy trade deals with others, etc) are being shown to not be reality 3 years in.

The other reason relates directly to the response to the revoke article 50 petition. Over 6 million signed it. 1 million of us marched in London to be told that 80% voted in last general election for pro brexit parties. So I can't vote even tactically in a first past the post party system. Ie I voted Labour as best opportunity to deny tory majority. I don't support brexit I didn't think that was sole point of my vote now I'm told it was. This changes how I have to vote in any election! Thurs I voted lib Dems as they are pro remain. I have no option I don't believe. General election today I'd vote lib Dems or possibly change UK I'd have to. Brexit is the top issue and I have a view on it being currently ignored.
SW-User
@Burnley123 but what question? Leave or remain or deal no deal? I still worry it'll be the latter not the former.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@SW-User The one thing that has been consistent in the Labour position is its opposition to no deal. What you suggest could still happen though if the Tories are in power. It would be truly awful to have a referendum on something like May's deal vrs a no-deal Brexit.
SW-User
@Burnley123 especially as..... The deal only lasts until end of 2020 then we'd need another one on the final agreement possibly
room101 · 51-55, M
Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party has never given a definitive "line" on Brexit and, they have made no effort to compromise. Corbyn himself is only interested in ousting the Tories and becoming PM. That's it and all about it. Everything that he has demanded is; already in place since January 2017, potentially contrary to EU rules and treaties, would give us membership to certain facets of the EU without any voice on the determination of the rules which govern those facets and, not on offer by the EU.

We had a referendum. Completely in keeping with what a referendum is meant to be, we were given a binary choice of stay in the EU or leave. The ballot did not ask us if we wanted to leave under X, Y or Z deals.

People say that we are now better informed. How are we better informed? We are still getting all manner of contradictory arguments. Why did we not take it upon ourselves to be properly informed when we voted? When we vote in a general election, we hear the promises made by the politicians vying to be MP's representing our constituency. It's incumbent on all of us to be informed about those politicians. What happens if we vote for someone who turns out to be a liar? Do we demand a re-run of the general election? Of course not!

Our side (ie those of us who wanted to stay in the EU) lost. A second referendum will never change that simple truth. It will only betray the democratic process that millions have fought and died to defend.
room101 · 51-55, M
@Burnley123 I agree that the 2017 election was an ideological battle but do not agree that the Labour Party has sought any kind of compromise. I've seen no evidence of such an effort. As to future elections being fought on ideological grounds, it depends very much on when a general election is held.

My solution seems to be lost to all of us. It was to support the withdrawal agreement. That's gone with Theresa May. My only hope now is that the next PM has some sense.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@room101 [quote]My only hope now is that the next PM has some sense.[/quote]

It's likely to be Boris Johnson.

Labour has tried to compromise and supported the withdrawal agreement, rather than taking a hard remain position and that is why 2017 was an ideological battle rather than being about Brexit. Their position has been criticised both both leavers and remainers. The problem is that there is only a thin centre ground of public opinion willing to compromise. It includes myself but I am in a minority, hence why I support a change in Labour policy.
room101 · 51-55, M
@Burnley123 I'm sorry mate but, as previously stated, I have seen no evidence of Labour trying to compromise. All I've seen is a concerted effort to undermine Theresa May and political brinkmanship. You've stated yourself (not just in this debate) that Labour has as many issues re Brexit as do the Tories. Unless, of course, if by compromise you mean placating both Remainers and Leavers.

I'm a bit ambivalent about Boris Johnson. My heart tells me to hate his stance. My head reads the words he uses and attempts to understand their meaning and intent.

[i]Mr Johnson told an economic conference in Switzerland on Friday that a new leader would have "the opportunity to do things differently".

"We will leave the EU on 31 October, deal or no deal. The way to get a good deal is to prepare for a no deal." [/i]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48403705

That last sentence makes a lot of sense to me.
Platinum · M
Nothing matters that has happened, except we have had a referendum and voted out...the next GE will be in 2022 unless something happens to change that, so our next step is to pick a new PM and once we see who wins, we can then see if they can negotiate with the eu or not , then we will know what's happening, we can all move foreword ...which will mean...a no deal exit, a no tariff deal, a referendum or a GE....exciting times...this is not for arguing just my opinion....
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MartinII · 70-79, M
Fully agree. I would add the failure of the government, whether due to incompetence or corruption I don’t know, to understand and exploit the strength of its negotiating position.
Nyloncapes · 61-69, M
@tommo11 every word you said is true ,
RodionRomanovitch · 56-60, M
With May's departure the Tories are likely now to go all in on no deal. If Corbyn continues to walk this line of trying to appeal to both camps , Labour will be wiped out. They need to offer the only real alternative to a no deal and that is a no brexit. It's time to get off the fence or suffer the consequences.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@RodionRomanovitch Its consequences either way but I do agree with you. I've been torn myself on the issue of Labour strategy.

However, this situation now seems as thus: Leave voters won't vote Labour anyway and Remain voters won't vote Labour unless they are clearly for a second ref.
NankerPhelge · 61-69, M
I voted Labour anyway, it's what I call a "Barry vote". The idea is to hopefully keep the Tories out because Labour are the lesser of the two evils. I named this process after my late friend Barry, who sadly passed away two and a half years ago. That was his method of voting, you see.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@NankerPhelge I don't disagree at all. Corbyn in many ways represents a delayed counter revolution to Blair.
NankerPhelge · 61-69, M
@Burnley123 Trouble is, Corbyn doesn't seem strong enough to win a general election.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@NankerPhelge I think he is and got 40% last time. No party will get that next time because the country is so divided but a Tory Party led by Boris Johnson is unlikely to get over 35%.
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Uncfred · 61-69, M
I think more people would "Turn out" if there was a second referendum, but I don't think any of the traditional parties would benefit.
I knew it would be dragged out until it vanished and you stayed in the EU..
referendum on a referendum.. wow.
RodionRomanovitch · 56-60, M
@TheOneyouwerewarnedabout Seriously , why does any of this even interest you ?
Platinum · M
I would be surprised if labour ever get in while Corbyn is leader....Tories will only get in if they pick the right person to lead them....voting in this country will never be the same again...democracy has been abused....
Platinum · M
@Burnley123 he already wants to remain, he wants CU and SM which is not leaving the eu...Tories are only in crisis because of May, with the right leader the crisis will be over....leaving labour in crisis...
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Platinum I'm glad you turned up to post this, if only to illustrate how the hardcore leavers see things.
Platinum · M
I'm not a hardcore leaver, they overwhelmingly voted for a referendum and art 50 and leave won...when I started to find out what the eu has done to our country and they have been getting more destructive each year and I think we need to go it alone and see if we do better...@Burnley123
Isn’t Jeremy Corbyn a terrorist supporter? Um no I wouldn’t vote for Labour ever. Wouldn’t support conservatives either though.
SW-User
@Gingerbreadspice a portrayal from the right wing press.
He supports Palastinian self determination and their right to a home land. Essentially what the Labour government of 1946 promised when we withdrew from their and established Israel.
He supported the civil rights movement in Ireland.
One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.

If you judge the cause by the desired outcome not the means some employ to get there it is more difficult to be so black and white.
SW-User
@Gingerbreadspice remember Mrs Thatcher continually referred to Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.... All about perspective
I don’t remember Thatcher she was only just still in power when I was born. I do remember Nelson Mandela, and I was reading a funny story not long ago that some people were convinced he died in 1985 when he actually died in 2013. 😆
Harriet03 · 41-45, F
[image deleted]
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Harriet03 Ha!

[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rJ9z6IXnb8]
Harriet03 · 41-45, F
[image deleted]
GeniUs · 56-60, M
No, because Brexit is not the only issue in the country.

I am still not a fan of Corbyn, but if Boris or Jeremy Cunt come in then we are fucked
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@InOtterWords cool. Thanks for being honest.
@Burnley123 i think there are many that feel this way. And now instead of sorting out Brexit and concentrating on fixing out country we are going to first see a battle of egos for the leadership, and then a general election I guess where no one will actually want to win and in the meanwhile nothing will get done.


At least we have the cricket.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@InOtterWords Though I would say that the only chance of stopping Brexit runs through the Labour Party (as the only party which could form a government which is not completely committed to Brexit).

 
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