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Heartlander · 80-89, M
I'm a Vietnam war vet and I've watched the series up to this point (7 episodes on our local PBS station so far?). I'll probably watch it through to the end. They haven't gotten to my part yet .... 1972-73, so I'm sort of anxious to see how he handles that part. I was in the AF Reserves and activated to serve as an advisor. When I returned after completing my tour I was immediately a civilian again.
I was in Saigon ... Tan Son Nhut ... at the time of the cease fire and I may get to see myself in some of the old news reels. I personally knew some of the people involved in the POW exchange. I well remember the day they released the official POW list and the big celebration by some. New names appeared on the list of MIA, presumed KIA. Unfortunately there were name expected to be on the list but weren't.
My personal experience in Vietnam was mostly positive but turned sour with the conclusion. I was a somewhat free-range advisor with the freedom to roam without too much adult supervision. Much of my impressions came from my experience with the Vietnamese people. I wasn't there at the very-very end, but my heart bled with a sense of betrayal. The millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians we abandoned to the North Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and the slaughter of those who had trusted us is a pockmark on America's conscience.
What I've noted most so far in the Burns' series is the lack of South Vietnamese to tell their stories. Lots of North Vietnamese and Viet Cong, but few words from the South Vietnamese who in my opinion were the central characters in the war. My own association with them suggested that they knew perfectly well what our mistakes were. They also knew how corrupt the South Vietnamese government was at every level. My question was about how does a corrupt and untrustable system defeat a greater enemy? Win he war now and fix the corruption later? It didn't work.
The one single news story during the fall of Saigon that best explains the failure in Vietnam and the death of millions, in my mind, was a press interview with then President Ford:
[i]MR. CRONKITE.[/i] [c=#800000]Mr. President, when did you last talk to President Thieu?[/c]
[i]THE PRESIDENT[/i]. [c=#800000]I have not personally talked to President Thieu since I became President. I have had a number of exchanges of correspondence with him, but the last time I talked to him was when he was in the United States and I was minority leader, and that was roughly 2 years ago, as I recollect.[/c]
Overall, the Ken Burns series is OK. It missed a lot of important points. There was a relationship between the French experience there and our own strategies in Korea. Unless I blinked and missed it, they never mentioned Bao Dai, or the problem the French had with their transition from being Japan's ally to their enemy. Or that Thieu had once been a Viet Minh. Then there was great Chinese conflict between the then two Chinas that expanded into Vietnam. All circumstances that swayed Vietnam's history. I guess Burns did enough to convince himself and the viewers that it was such a convoluted mess that it would take a lot more than 18 episodes to even hit the highlights. It wasn't a war between two sides, more like 20+ sides. Throw in the competing US, European and Chinese political interests and it was a war with 100+ sides.
I was in Saigon ... Tan Son Nhut ... at the time of the cease fire and I may get to see myself in some of the old news reels. I personally knew some of the people involved in the POW exchange. I well remember the day they released the official POW list and the big celebration by some. New names appeared on the list of MIA, presumed KIA. Unfortunately there were name expected to be on the list but weren't.
My personal experience in Vietnam was mostly positive but turned sour with the conclusion. I was a somewhat free-range advisor with the freedom to roam without too much adult supervision. Much of my impressions came from my experience with the Vietnamese people. I wasn't there at the very-very end, but my heart bled with a sense of betrayal. The millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians we abandoned to the North Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and the slaughter of those who had trusted us is a pockmark on America's conscience.
What I've noted most so far in the Burns' series is the lack of South Vietnamese to tell their stories. Lots of North Vietnamese and Viet Cong, but few words from the South Vietnamese who in my opinion were the central characters in the war. My own association with them suggested that they knew perfectly well what our mistakes were. They also knew how corrupt the South Vietnamese government was at every level. My question was about how does a corrupt and untrustable system defeat a greater enemy? Win he war now and fix the corruption later? It didn't work.
The one single news story during the fall of Saigon that best explains the failure in Vietnam and the death of millions, in my mind, was a press interview with then President Ford:
[i]MR. CRONKITE.[/i] [c=#800000]Mr. President, when did you last talk to President Thieu?[/c]
[i]THE PRESIDENT[/i]. [c=#800000]I have not personally talked to President Thieu since I became President. I have had a number of exchanges of correspondence with him, but the last time I talked to him was when he was in the United States and I was minority leader, and that was roughly 2 years ago, as I recollect.[/c]
Overall, the Ken Burns series is OK. It missed a lot of important points. There was a relationship between the French experience there and our own strategies in Korea. Unless I blinked and missed it, they never mentioned Bao Dai, or the problem the French had with their transition from being Japan's ally to their enemy. Or that Thieu had once been a Viet Minh. Then there was great Chinese conflict between the then two Chinas that expanded into Vietnam. All circumstances that swayed Vietnam's history. I guess Burns did enough to convince himself and the viewers that it was such a convoluted mess that it would take a lot more than 18 episodes to even hit the highlights. It wasn't a war between two sides, more like 20+ sides. Throw in the competing US, European and Chinese political interests and it was a war with 100+ sides.
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Heartlander · 80-89, M
Thanks. Some of my earliest memories are of of the anxieties and fretting over the uncles, cousins and family boyfriends in WW2. My oldest first cousin was killed in Anzio. He was 17. My mom kept his letters and kept rereading them for years afterwards. I was the ring bearer kid for two neighbors when they married their returning sweethearts.
Everything I knew about that war itself I learned in John Wayne movies or reading old Life magazines. When the soldiers, sailors and marines returned they changed clothes and went back to work. I remember my godfather appearing at the door in his uniform. It was nighttime. The very next morning he was at work with my dad. Over the next few years there were maybe a few glimpses of their experiences but by and large it was like they were so happy to be living ordinary lives it was like WW2 never happened. One cousin suffered severe "shell shock" and spent a few years in a VA hospital. If he talked about his experience it was always about how happy he was to get away from the VA hospital and not about the war.
Vietnam was different. 42+ years later it's like we are still trying to shake the hangover. The Ken Burns series reflects that. WW2 was characterized as "Them bad" Vs "We good" and whatever mistakes made were honest mistakes in the fog of war. Vietnam on the other hand has been characterized with a range of words like "blunder" and "mistake". Vietnam was different.
Everything I knew about that war itself I learned in John Wayne movies or reading old Life magazines. When the soldiers, sailors and marines returned they changed clothes and went back to work. I remember my godfather appearing at the door in his uniform. It was nighttime. The very next morning he was at work with my dad. Over the next few years there were maybe a few glimpses of their experiences but by and large it was like they were so happy to be living ordinary lives it was like WW2 never happened. One cousin suffered severe "shell shock" and spent a few years in a VA hospital. If he talked about his experience it was always about how happy he was to get away from the VA hospital and not about the war.
Vietnam was different. 42+ years later it's like we are still trying to shake the hangover. The Ken Burns series reflects that. WW2 was characterized as "Them bad" Vs "We good" and whatever mistakes made were honest mistakes in the fog of war. Vietnam on the other hand has been characterized with a range of words like "blunder" and "mistake". Vietnam was different.
Angelly · F
@Heartlander To this day, I can still recall my Mother's worry & anxiety (understandably)when my brother was drafted & served in 1967-1968. 2 of my cousins died in their 30's from Cancer caused by Agent Orange. I agree that the Vietnam War was different & the mistreatment towards the returning vets was wrong & unfair.
Heartlander · 80-89, M
@Angelly Agent Orange was was one of the ugly dimensions of the war, among the thousands. I had an overhead view of the war and saw the effects of agent orange. I knew people who handled it and who had dropped it and later carried the worry for the rest of their lives. I'm so sorry about your cousins. I lost track of many of my old comrades. The Air Force was more of a revolving door.
Earlier tonight I saw the episode that covered 1967 through 69 or 70. The student uprisings ... Kent State ... Woodstock ... etc. Since I'm the sandwich generation (born before the war) and not the boomer generation my own interpretation differs from Burns' in that I saw Vietnam and Woodstock as more coincidental overlapping events than cause and effect. Like even had there been no Vietnam war, Woodstock and Kent State like events would have probably still happened.
In my own experience in the late 50's and very early 60's, before we could even find Vietnam on a map, there were already student uprisings that got pretty vicious. Pep rallies, panty raids got out of hand and were put down with tear gas and fire-hoses. Buildings were ransacked. Vehicles burned. I remember colleges erupting in 1960 and 61 like spontaneous combustion. No reason, they just did. Like the uprising was already there, then came Vietnam to belatedly give it a reason.
Earlier tonight I saw the episode that covered 1967 through 69 or 70. The student uprisings ... Kent State ... Woodstock ... etc. Since I'm the sandwich generation (born before the war) and not the boomer generation my own interpretation differs from Burns' in that I saw Vietnam and Woodstock as more coincidental overlapping events than cause and effect. Like even had there been no Vietnam war, Woodstock and Kent State like events would have probably still happened.
In my own experience in the late 50's and very early 60's, before we could even find Vietnam on a map, there were already student uprisings that got pretty vicious. Pep rallies, panty raids got out of hand and were put down with tear gas and fire-hoses. Buildings were ransacked. Vehicles burned. I remember colleges erupting in 1960 and 61 like spontaneous combustion. No reason, they just did. Like the uprising was already there, then came Vietnam to belatedly give it a reason.
luv2fly352 · 70-79, M
I served in Vietnam as an infantry squad leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade from '66 to '67 and have always appreciated Ken Burns' work especially when he did the Civil War series because my great great grandfather served on the Union side, but to answer your question,most of us who were "grunts" generally tend to gravitate toward one another,if at all,due to being actual combat veterans. Hope this helps.
luv2fly352 · 70-79, M
Heartlander · 80-89, M
@luv2fly352 Thanks for sharing that. I think there are so many dimensions that anything one says is always like starting a conversation in the middle and only only people familiar with some of the other dimensions can follow the flow and appreciate that what's being said is only a tiny piece.
luv2fly352 · 70-79, M
Yes indeed.